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 Post subject: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector Badge
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Gunpenny has been a menace on structures for the past couple of patches, only recently being noticed for it's risk-free and strong push. In an attempt to nerf the actual problem that is spiderbird badge, two nerfs have been given to cookie monster badge with the soul purpose of directly nerfing spiderbird collector badge instead.

Instead of nerfing one upgrade, making building AA penny not viable, I'd rather a nerf be given to spiderbird collector badge. The difference between Gunpenny and other ranged attackers is that Penny has great mobility and the upgrade gives her no movement penalty, on top of that her damage stays constant and isn't reduced in any manner to offset the sheer amount of benefits this upgrade gives. Other characters also have a higher increase than 31% on their AA, however they are much more expensive and they also don't have access to starstorm statue which makes Penny, Ted, and Sentry much more threatening than a lot of the cast.

Make Cookie Monster Badge damage everything again, however increase it's price from 220 to 300. On top of this, change spiderbird collector badge to add a movement penalty, or reduce the projectile's damage on turrets? Could also just reduce the damage of the ranged shots by 25% or so to effectively reduce the damage of the projectiles without killing off AA Penny.

Please remember Cookie Monster Badge isn't a permanent increase like every other upgrade as well, without charges you essentially spent 300 solar for no increase until you start gaining more charges. I've compared Cookie Monster Badge to upgrades like Lonestar's Crystal Eagle Bullets (300 solar for a permanent 31% increase, as well as having 4 other DPS increasing upgrades on his AA row), and Dizzy's Concrete Wall which offers a 30% increase for 200 solar which isn't constant similar to Penny's upgrade (also reaches 40% when combined with Ribbit Ribbit Real Good which makes it 385 solar for 40%.

Cookie Monster is just underpriced for what it offers compared to virtually every other AA upgrade which outprices it with multiple stages.

Tl;dr increase the price of cookie monster, make spiderbird collecter either deal less damage or not as riskfree as it currently is

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:18 pm 
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monster badge is one of the most cost effective upgrades in the game and the fact that you could get 100% structure dmg and clear with it (not even considering gunpenny) was insane. Penny's base clear is more than enough to let her push effectively and her tower dmg is now much more in line with the rest of the cast.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Yea I'm for the actual problem upgrade being fixed up rather than bandaid-nerfing the damage upgrade.

Let's talk a bit about Spiderbird in general. Fittingly for the assassin, it doesn't give any AA-slowdown when using it, but because of its great range, it has a terrible travel-speed and so is mainly a pushing upgrade (droids/turrets are very easy targets and easy to utilize the great range on, even better now that Spiderbird has AoE). While this makes it "fine", it's perhaps too pusher/harasser-oriented.

Which then brings me to this, you can boost the travel-speed in accord with how much range you deduct. The more you reduce range and boost travel-speed, the less pusher/harasser you make it out to be and the more brawler you make it out to be. Instead of an example suggestion of instating an AA-slowdown to try to make Spiderbird more fair, I'd look into this kinda thing.


On a related topic to the range-AAs thing, Genji's AA range upgrade is being looked upon as problematic now for good reason. You compare it to the range upgrade that other brawlers can get (i.e. Ted and Rocco) and big reason why Genji's is so vastly more problematic is due to the nature of the AA it's on, a piercing projectile with return and very fast travel-speed (on top of flat-out giving a larger range boost). Ted's bullets travel a tad too slow and Rocco's has spread, if all these dudes get their range upgrade then Genji's is still best for a brawler AA, topping a dedicated damage-dealer's ironically. Only thing it's worse at is structure damage iirc.

But yeah while I understand your sentiment about the nature of Cookie Monster Badge and how it's only such a large boost when you've maxed out on charges and etc, to my understanding and from what I hear, Penny's AA is still nice despite being nerfed to crap damage-wise in comparison to preXP so..

Just my 2c.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:27 pm 
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I think you guys are missing the point.

Spiderbird was too good.
Cookiemonster badge was downright op.
Nerfing cookiemonster badge killed two birds with one stone.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point.

Spiderbird was too good.
Cookiemonster badge was downright op.
Nerfing cookiemonster badge killed two birds with one stone.


Gameinsky is right.

No more changes are needed except maybe putting a downside to gunpenny (AA slowdown)

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Go play AA penny without spiderbrid, see how well that ends.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:38 pm 
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eddster27 wrote:
monster badge is one of the most cost effective upgrades in the game and the fact that you could get 100% structure dmg and clear with it (not even considering gunpenny) was insane. Penny's base clear is more than enough to let her push effectively and her tower dmg is now much more in line with the rest of the cast.
Doppelganger wrote:
Gameinsky wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point.

Spiderbird was too good.
Cookiemonster badge was downright op.
Nerfing cookiemonster badge killed two birds with one stone.


Gameinsky is right.

No more changes are needed except maybe putting a downside to gunpenny (AA slowdown)

These.
Perhaps Gunfox could use some nerfs (IE movement speed reduction while AAing) but you forget that Gunfox was a useless meme upgrade until they finally gave it an AoE.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:40 am 
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When it didn't have AoE it was just a downgrade, then it got AoE and became really good because it didn't hinder her clear and allowed her to play safer. Penny shouldn't be a pusher, I'd rather her structure damage be reduced instead of Cookie Monster Badge be changed to awesomenauts only. Spiderbird Collector can still be used often since there are still no downsides, she gains so much more from it than buying Cookie Monster Badge now, she becomes ranged and even more riskfree than she previously was, it's just that now you can't build into AA Penny without it being mediocre and just not near as fun.

Monster Badge is one of the most cost effective upgrades in the game, you are right eddster, which is why I propose to increase it's price because it is absurd how cheap it is, despite not being constant unlike the rest of the cast. It's also why I'm proposing to reduce her structure damage or just the damage of her AA when Spiderbird Collector Activates, I still enjoy using gunpenny but building into AA is just a waste of time and pointless now and I'm trying to reach a happy medium where it can still be used and fun to play with without being safe or overpowering. I enjoy playing Penny and that mainly came from using Gunpenny and just building her AA, but now I can hardly do that and expect to win.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:19 am 
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Just another thing where nerfs goes into all the wrong spots.

Easy fix
- Reduce Spiderbird projectile range and increase the travel speed.
- Give Spiderbird a 25% turret damage reduction.
- For all things sane revert the cookie monster badge nerf and just split it into 2 tiers. Don't focus so much on nerfing one aspect when it affects other builds. What is the reason for nerfing cookie and Spiderbird?

Nerfing cookie monster affects the whole row and builds without Spiderbird.

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 Post subject: Re: revert Cookie Monster Badge, nerf Spiderbird Collector B
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:00 am 
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What part of 200+ damage AA do you guys think is balanced?

The part where it kills creep waves instantly or the part that it kills towers instantly?

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