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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:00 pm 
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I agree with everything GameInSky has said. He has highlighted why Core Shields are important and practical.

Backdooring should be a thing in the game, but it is too easy to do. Without any shield protection, any form of backdooring is successful and leads to an eventual end. We all want games to avoid stall, which is exactly why the shield can help defensive teams move away from their core. Ideally, having enough time to teleport back to base to effectively deal with the enemy would be helpful.

My numerical proposal for a shield:
Current:
Core HP = 12000

Proposed Mechanics:
Core HP = 6000
Core Shield HP = 4000
Core Regeneration/second = 200 HP/Second
Core Regeneration Delay = 10 Seconds

If the core gets hit within 10 seconds, the regeneration effect will stop for another 10 seconds. Hitting a core that is waiting to start regenerating refreshes the effect, essentially like denying Sentry his ability to teleport.

Overall health of the core would be reduced significantly (2000 HP). With the regenerative value, in order to fully recharge the shield, it would take 20 seconds of straight regeneration without considering the 10 seconds of time it takes to start that process. This would allow comps that are trying to siege a core to chip every once in a while to effectively deny the core's regeneration. The shield's value can be adjusted, but I wanted a large value to stop solo-backdoor if it does go contested and to make double-backdooring more difficult but not impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Those are values with which I can agree (obviously on paper).

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:47 pm 
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I'd probably rather go with this myself:
10000 health, 2000 shield, regen after 10 seconds at the rate of 100/sec

In HoTS the shield is bigger, but there the core is approachable from all sides. so in Nauts I think the shield should be much smaller.

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:27 pm 
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If we take the most prominent form, Leon, as the balance point (at level 10), and account for the three seconds of teleport animation (and perhaps two more to actually make it out of the shop), he can deal ~1,919 damage with relevant damage upgrades on AA in five seconds.

2,000 should be, therefore, enough shield. He would be able to breach it after five seconds, but I think that is more than enough time for someone to come to its defence.

Obviously, these are hastily run numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
Because while backdooring is a legit strategy, it's too effective at what it does. Even if you don't manage to deal damage to the base, you force the defending team into footsies.

This is exactly the reason why shielding does not fix the issue at all.

Backdooring would still happen, even if the attacker doesn't do damage at all. Because you'll still be forced to go back, and some characters take very little risk in attacking base. Except with a shield they do very little permanent damage.

As such, a shield is most likely to only prolong this * back-and-forth, while still ending in the same result as you're continuously chasing ghosts.

Alternatively you stay at base, and the shield prevents a lot of chip damage. Thus potentially making the match near endless.

On top of all these downsides, a shield also takes away from the motivation of characters who do take risks to attack base as they're no longer guaranteed to do permanent damage. Thus further stimulating the attacking team to play footsies until some defenders are dead.

Of course, you could make the shield weak enough to not affect the game negatively, but then it also doesn't provide the safety needed to make players go out.

Finally, that 80 minute game was pre-XP system, nowadays games almost never last longer than 45 minutes.

Edit: on a more constructive note, I think it's better to try and increase the likelihood of backdooring players being caught.


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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Jasper wrote:
Backdooring would still happen, even if the attacker doesn't do damage at all. Because you'll still be forced to go back, and some characters take very little risk in attacking base. Except with a shield they do very little permanent damage.

Surely if backdooring would have no permanent effect then its usage would become irrelevant?

Jasper wrote:
As such, a shield is most likely to only prolong this * back-and-forth, while still ending in the same result as you're continuously chasing ghosts.

If it would still be an issue, why not introduce some actual form of backdoor protection? This may require something being done about the droids having a hard time getting to the Drill itself on account of them being utterly useless, but I still do not see how the problem does not have a solution.

Jasper wrote:
Alternatively you stay at base, and the shield prevents a lot of chip damage. Thus potentially making the match near endless.

This is no different to what we have now. At any rate, the shield would not regenerate fast enough for sporadic damage not to have an effect, as was said.

Jasper wrote:
On top of all these downsides, a shield also takes away from the motivation of characters who do take risks to attack base as they're no longer guaranteed to do permanent damage. Thus further stimulating the attacking team to play footsies until some defenders are dead.

Backdooring as Leon/Ksenia against anything other than a hypercoordinated premade is not a risk in the slightest.

Jasper wrote:
Of course, you could make the shield weak enough to not affect the game negatively, but then it also doesn't provide the safety needed to make players go out.

I do not understand what you mean by this.

You say above that the shield would serve no real beneficial function, but then here say that a strong shield would provide safety for the defenders of the Drill? So it would have an effect if it were strong enough?

Jasper wrote:
Finally, that 80 minute game was pre-XP system, nowadays games almost never last longer than 45 minutes.

In what realm of existence is the mere thought of a 45-minute Awesomenauts game not cause for concern in the MOBA whose defining features include "short, in-and-out games?"

Jasper wrote:
Edit: on a more constructive note, I think it's better to try and increase the likelihood of backdooring players being caught.

Backdoor protection of some kind includes:

  • Invulnerable turret on the core (HotS)
  • More than one attacker required to damage the core
  • Droids required to damage structures (here the core, Dota)
  • This aforementioned shield (HotS)

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:48 pm 
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Jasper wrote:
Gameinsky wrote:
Because while backdooring is a legit strategy, it's too effective at what it does. Even if you don't manage to deal damage to the base, you force the defending team into footsies.

This is exactly the reason why shielding does not fix the issue at all.



Backdooring would still happen, even if the attacker doesn't do damage at all. Because you'll still be forced to go back, and some characters take very little risk in attacking base. Except with a shield they do very little permanent damage. As such, a shield is most likely to only prolong this * back-and-forth, while still ending in the same result as you're continuously chasing ghosts.



It does fix the issue though. Late game when your base is opened up, especially if you still gotta take out the enemy's backturrets, even if you kill someone 1 for nothing if they still have a Leon or Frog or any otherwise relatively fast naut you literally can't push because for however much damage you deal to their structures, it will deal the same to you. No progression can be made for the defending team. They absolutely have to utilize resources on defending the base. Just assuming the structure dps is even for both teams (and it won't be), then that means the backdoorer is gaining more of an advantage for pushing than the team that got the 1 for nothing by merit of being further on ahead. You shouldn't be gaining a push advantage because your team had a death. It's illogical, discourages active gameplay from the team that's behind, and is precisely why all the other MOBAs have their 'Nexus' or base tot ypically have some sort of backdoor protection, typically in the form of a final boss or in a regenerative shield.

With a base shield, when this scenario happens, it means the backdoorer accomplishes little to nothing. The team that got a kill can make some progression on pushing structures and make it back in time to minimize backdooring.

Pushing should in general be a reward for getting kills. There is a certain element of discouraging push in these scenarios that are skillful, but backdooring is effectively far too simple/easy and far too rewarding.


Quote:
Alternatively you stay at base, and the shield prevents a lot of chip damage. Thus potentially making the match near endless.


There's been a suggestion multiple times that if the base and/or shield takes any amount of damage within a certain timeframe, regeneration is halted and it has to go, for example, 10s without any damage to begin regeneration. I think, with that in mind, it wouldn't be a problem, but at the very least that is worthy of a beta test. Anyone who makes a definitive "This won't be a problem" or a definitive "this will cause excessive stalling" is simply talking out of their ass, no offense. It is merely a speculation.

Quote:
On top of all these downsides, a shield also takes away from the motivation of characters who do take risks to attack base as they're no longer guaranteed to do permanent damage. Thus further stimulating the attacking team to play footsies until some defenders are dead.


This is how Awesomenauts works. As a result of a teamfight, you get push because there's fewer defenders. If you want pushers to be more advantageous without getting kills or otherwise forcing people out of lane, introduce something like droid shields or turret diving or solar/xp penalties for clearing droids at your structures. (Not that I necessarily agree with doing any of those, but my point is there are alternatives to the current paradigm)

And while I'm at it, one of the reasons a lot of comps suffer at pushing is because they don't think about pushing at character select. They end up as like Frog Leon Ksenia at character select and so they have no real way to chip turrets that are being actively defended (none of these guys can really go in on a turret that's being actively defended by like Raelynn or something). Having a ranged AA or something makes that a lot easier. It's why gunpenny is so good; Amongst other things it takes a melee ranged pusher/clearer and gives her icnredibly range instead, allowing her to safely hit turrets without like getting hammered into a rift or some crap.

Quote:
Of course, you could make the shield weak enough to not affect the game negatively, but then it also doesn't provide the safety needed to make players go out.


This is 100% theorycraft. No one has a clue on the state of balance and whether or not there's any good middle grounds for the shield strength until you actually it in a beta and let it be tested.


Frankly, I find it, uh, irritating(that's my nicest description) that you're willing to betatest all these crazy reworks like Ted/Yurietc but here's this rework that has a humongous amount of support and we can't even get a beta of it. Just let us test it, and if it turns out to be *, as you've no doubt become aware, you'll hear all about it in the beta forum.








And just to re-iterate, the current pushing paradigm for a drastically behind team is something like this

step 1) get a 1 for nothing kill
step 2) Push as a result of it, take a good 3-4 bars off hopefully more
step 3) Go back to base because someone is backdooring, they take a good 3-4 bars off (hopefully no more than that)
step 4) Both teams have equal progression pushing

alternatives is leaving one person behind for defense, and then the usual amount of pushing on both sides can be reasonably guessed to be around 1-2 bars. Nothing chanes except it gets even stallier. Really the only way to securely turn things around in your favor is to catch a backdoorer after that 1 for nothing and kill him too, however that requires more team coordination and, especially dependent on matchups, can force the team that got the kill to forgo any pushing. This means you have to risk any push you got as a result for that kill in order to get that backdoorer. The backdoorer can be aware of this and just intentionally run around wasting your time, especially if theyre Froggy G or something. But if you choose to ignore them, they tweeter bomb and AA your base or like Leon leaves a clone or something.

With a base shield, hopefully the pushing team can get a good 3-4 bars off minimum and at the MOST lose 1 bar.

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Last edited by MrPillowTheGreat on Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:56 pm 
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Quote:
on a more constructive note, I think it's better to try and increase the likelihood of backdooring players being caught.


I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this, but I struggle to think of a way of doing this that isn't otherwise needlessly making environment traps or nerfing 'backdoor'-y nauts or buffing defenders, and I can't imagine giving anything besides a "hell naw" to the specifics any of those


surprise me :kiss:

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:07 am 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
Quote:
on a more constructive note, I think it's better to try and increase the likelihood of backdooring players being caught.


surprise me :kiss:


Attack the base from below. and put small defensive's dronesin all 4 point of access (above/below/front/back)

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 Post subject: Re: The Drill Core issue!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:18 am 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
Frankly, I find it, uh, irritating(that's my nicest description) that you're willing to betatest all these crazy reworks like Ted/Yurietc but here's this rework that has a humongous amount of support and we can't even get a beta of it. Just let us test it, and if it turns out to be *, as you've no doubt become aware, you'll hear all about it in the beta forum.

+1 if we started treating beta like a playground to test all these crazy reworks I doon't see why can't we test drill shield.

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