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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Using teleport beacon for the purpose of teleporting behind enemies into a potentially dangerous situation with those buffs and BHS shield is still pretty funny. Too bad the ability to just double tap teleport for the buffs is there though.

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:37 pm 
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You really shouldn't be using numbers to judge how effective people are at escaping BHS, it just doesn't work that way in practice. Nobody can keep their full acceleration 24/7, it's not hard for sentry to catch people in holes even if they have BKM by just getting them during low acceleration moments such as jump peaks. I feel like BKM doesn't really do that much against it, it only helps me escape 1-2 holes in a match when I pick it up that I otherwise wouldn't have escaped. And when you do escape it, you're still essentially under the effect of a powerful slow - the ability isn't suddenly useless.

I really don't mind the buff beacon style of play - if people want to use it like that, then let them. The problem is that it just plain outclasses burst beacon right now. Make them equally as good and we're fine here. By addressing his AA problems you also inadvertently nerf IAM. If IAM is still a problem after adjusting sentry, then lower its duration a bit (it is honestly a bit long). Correct me if I'm wrong, but IAM is STILL bugged as it actually adds 50% attack speed and not 33%, haven't seen this fixed in any patch notes.

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
I feel like BKM doesn't really do that much against it, it only helps me escape 1-2 holes in a match when I pick it up that I otherwise wouldn't have escaped.


Unless you're using Ayla. Boots + speed buff on rage + BKM = Impossible to catch in a black hole.


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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:23 am 
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Zold wrote:
I don't think the BHS changes are bad at all. You seem to be forgetting that Ayla uses an identical mechanic where the Slow % of her Evil Eye is dependant on her health and nobody has a problem with that. Sentry's BHS duration would be dependant on his damage absorbed. In both cases this is very visible for the opponent. To me, it only seems logical that his CC grows stronger the more damage you soak.


Bruh

No one has a problem with Ayla's slow eye because 1, its single target and 2, its only the slowing power that is affected by her health, not duration. The moment you're hit by evil eye you can feel how slow you are immediately for 2.5 seconds. Your BHS changes would not be the same as eye as it is the duration of it that will be affected, not it's CC potency and players trapped in it will have to guess mostly when it explodes, not to mention when you get the dmg absorbed upgrades that bar gets even bigger so it'll be harder to guess.

It may seem logical to you that his CC would get stronger with the more dmg you soak, but from the set of circumstances given and from a game design perspective this is not logical at all.

Zold wrote:
At the moment, I see very little incentive for solo and duo players to build into Teleburst and take on an agressive Teleburst playstyle. Building AA+Telebuff is much easier, much safer and I'd say it gets more reward. Teleburst is easy to shut down, has mediocre damage - the best quality of it is the Silence, which is very powerful, but that's about it. If you want to encourage people playing Teleburst, then it needs buffs. I think a big part of the weakness of building Teleburst is that you get a poor droid clear, which is why I think a lower cooldown with medicore damage is the best way to go.


This is mostly due to AA being overtuned cuz idfk someone thought it was a good idea to buff Sentry's AA a few patches ago, cuz no one really went attack speed until that happened. Also in the same patch CoT became... Something. I'm all down for active Sentry and seeing telebuff go away but im just saying all of your changes in conjunction with each other are bad. Seeing beacon disappear after a certain amount of time is a step in the right direction.

From a stand alone perspective, if you want an active beacon from CD going down and dmg going up might not be too bad but you have to remember this will decrease the downtime for a hefty silence. I do think you underrate current teleburst w/ items, but maybe a small dmg buff & cd decrease will be in order if AA is toned down from its current state. 350 dmg & 10 sec cd is way too much if combined with YKP, Starstorm and Silence but could start something from there. Gotta think of suitable replacements for beacon upgrades too that wont make teleburst overbearing with these numbers in mind too.

Also if IAM is still bugged that's pretty funny

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:10 am 
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Sam wrote:
Nobody can keep their full acceleration 24/7, it's not hard for sentry to catch people in holes even if they have BKM by just getting them during low acceleration moments such as jump peaks.


The tests were done from 0 acceleration. All the opponents were standing still when Black Hole Sun hit them. Even if they mess it up, many chars can still escape.

Lunk wrote:
...

I honestly don't see much difference, but if anything, slow strength being variable is more harmful than slow duration. You try to take strength and duration apart, when they both work in junction to restrict your movement. (Yes, Sentry doens't use Slow, but it comes down to the same thing for most characters.)

For example:
20% slow for 2 seconds on a 8 movement speed = 6.4*2=12.8 movement in 2 seconds
40% slow for 1 second on a 8 movement speed = 4.8+8 = 12.8 movement in 2 seconds

In both cases your movement is harmed equally, despite them having a different strength and duration. If anything, I'd say the 40% slow is stronger because it's an easier set-up tool. You won't have to guess anything if the charge-meter is designed in such a way that 150 absorbed damage equals one bar which would be 0.1 sec CC.

As for Teleburst, numbers are just conceptual. They'd have to be tested to see their strength. Perhaps 325 damage on a 12 second cooldown works, or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:44 am 
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If you don't see the big difference maybe you shouldn't be trying to push these changes. A player can react instantaneously to a different slow % when they are hit by it, they cannot to a different slow duration because they wont know the duration until it ends. That's effectively what your BHS changes are, a different gravity duration.

Your slow % vs duration graph is honestly just irrelevant here, as it isn't a case of what is stronger, but what is better design. I'm not going to say the changing slow % is good design, but it's much better than the design a changing slow duration.

As I've stated before, over netcode all these bar mechanics in segments are honestly ridiculously bugged and inconsistent, and would never want them dictating the visual of a crowd control duration. In a perfect world maybe but realistically this wont work.

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:46 am 
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fixing IAM bug should be the first thing done tbh. It's actually the hydro smash phenomenon all over again (and even fixed, hydro smash is still viable).

Also, all I'll say about beacon is that it's p funny that BHS is a much more impactful ability in teamfights and all, but has a lower CD than beacon.
People suggested to swap beacon and BHS cooldown, and honestly, it would make sense.
Tough it's a placebo that doesn't change jack about both abilities' issues.

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:52 am 
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I don't see any logic in your statements because all of the problems you describe are already happening in the game and nobody complains about them. Ayla uses a same mechanic I proposed, Time Modifiers interact with CC in such a way you can't accurately grasp how long a CC-effect will last and healthbars are already divided into segments and I don't think people complain about those being messed up by netcode or anything.

Personally, I don't even think BHS-changes are drastically needed. I feel like 'nauts like Voltar and Yoolip deserve much more attention than Sentry. If I had a veto, I would just revert CoT nerfs, fix the shield 'bug', make BHS deplete after a set time and call it a day. The only thing I'm doing here is coming up with ideas to find a consensus with players who have different opinions and gameplay experiences. That's not pushing for my own changes in any way - the things I propose are far from my own ideal changes.

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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:07 am 
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Ayla needs to aim evil eye though, that's not even close to a good comparison.
The radius of BHS needs to be reduced by about 20%, the ability to activate it mid-air needs to go (making it more like airstrike and more skill-based), and it needs to be affected by walls. Those changes need to come first then balance it from there.


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 Post subject: Re: SoloQing with Sentry
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:03 am 
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You're comparing pot holes to sink holes, time modifiers aren't good design whatsoever and players just basically accept if they get caught in a time modifer and another CC they're basically dead as most characters. Plus these interactions in a realistic online scenario are uncommon enough for most players to not make a huge fuss about it as it takes 2 characters and coordination to do. Also health bars aren't segmented, the visual is segmented but they're not coded into segments, like the bugged ammo/charge bars are. This one you should already know.

Saying "This one bad game design thing is in game, so the one I've proposed is fine too" is a stupid argument you should not be leaning towards. You literally compared your changes to time modifiers in conjunction with other CC's, which is basically a guaranteed kill and generally across 2 characters, not 1.

I would also like to note that this isn't the only problem with the BHS changes you proposed, they're also rather pubstompy and possibly even team comp dependent. In just random online games its extremely easy to build BHS charge and later into the game that is easily leading to 2s duration BHS w/ Cyanide Cigarettes (1.9734s but Ronimo would probably round it up), which I assume you've done the math and know it's possible to achieve. This is extremely polarising if you're trying to just soloq and you have a less brighter team who constantly throw spike dives and airstrikes into a Sentry charging his BHS.

Further onto pubstomping, now imagine all that dmg you've received to get your massive 2s BHS then consider that in Sentryharding where the Voltar will just negate all the risk you just put yourself through, all those slower characters will now get rolled even harder in Sentryhard. Anything that buffs one of the most well known pubstomping tactics in the game is blatantly bad.

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