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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:55 pm 
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well yeah, no duh, that's why it's dumb for gameinsky to be talking about xp like it did anything to change that
the stupid balance changes and scaling issues that came with xp's release are what people should be complaining about


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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:14 am 
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As evidenced, I have yet to be told why it was a worthwhile introduction outside of nerfing damage upgrades.

Given that nerfing damage upgrades could have been done without the XP System ever being conceived, I do not count it as a valid reason.

"Stomps are quicker" also holds no merit for reasons I explained in a previous thread and could copy here if that would be helpful.

"The better team should win" also holds no merit when the rubber band mechanic is designed to reward the losing side and punish the leading side. Consistent performance was already rewarded before the XP System because trying to come back against enemies with a 600 Solar lead did not happen outside of major failings on their part.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:48 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
I'll defend late joins. I have a hard time believing that the game is better off without them. Now we have new problems (ok these aren't new but they're more common than before and arguably way worse):

Longer queue times
Players deliberately throwing games that they believe are a lost cause
Frustrating games where you're stuck with noobs for 20 minutes
Frustrating games where you're stuck with a bot for 20 minutes.

Late joins served as mechanism to turn otherwise crappy matchups into something remotely fair.


Pfft.
In league 3 nothing was annoying as having a fair match for 25 minutes, then when you are about to win, one opponent ragequits and gets replaced by a L1 god that makes the first 25 minutes irrelevant and steals your well earned victory. If you are L1 yourself, of course you cant understand the pain in that.

And ragequitting has gone down by like 85% due to rq penalty and removal of latejoins, which is abgreat thing too.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:31 pm 
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IsoKoala wrote:
robochase6000 wrote:
I'll defend late joins. I have a hard time believing that the game is better off without them. Now we have new problems (ok these aren't new but they're more common than before and arguably way worse):

Longer queue times
Players deliberately throwing games that they believe are a lost cause
Frustrating games where you're stuck with noobs for 20 minutes
Frustrating games where you're stuck with a bot for 20 minutes.

Late joins served as mechanism to turn otherwise crappy matchups into something remotely fair.


Pfft.
In league 3 nothing was annoying as having a fair match for 25 minutes, then when you are about to win, one opponent ragequits and gets replaced by a L1 god that makes the first 25 minutes irrelevant and steals your well earned victory. If you are L1 yourself, of course you cant understand the pain in that.

And ragequitting has gone down by like 85% due to rq penalty and removal of latejoins, which is abgreat thing too.


just because ragequits happen less frequently doesn't mean the game is better IMO. people used to fill those vacant slots pretty quickly - 5-15 seconds later. let's not forget that slots become vacant for other reasons too - DCs, quirks, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:35 pm 
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personally i think the only reason, from a balance perspective, why solar and xp are even tolerated as much as they are is because it's a staple of MOBAs to have an accomplishment based progression system, even if it leads to snowballing. its kinda silly like in Call of Duty any competitive variant always had killstreaks and deathstreaks powerups disabled, because your previous kills/deaths shouldn't affect your capability of brawling it out in the next engagement. While you can make a comeback even with progression systems, it's just objectively harder and makes for stale-r gameplay. Obviously if you're 3 levels and 600 solar behind you aren't exactly going to be being super aggressive. There's not much you can do besides sit at your turret, which isn't fun for either side. If you 'deserve to lose', then follow through and make a 3 level difference an auto loss. Words have meanings, and if you think being several levels behind means you shouldn't automatically have your base blow up, then you don't think that because someone lost the first few teamfights they deserve to lose the rest of the game. if you standby that their should be a significant statisical difference in terms of strength though, that's fine, however unless you're going to say the behind team deserves to lose the rest of their fights, we need to address the consequences of being several levels behind.

lets pretend your team got wiped 5 times in a row and enemy team is awesome and is at your base pushing. you then start playing sick and get 6 wipes in a row and win. i know this is a pretty forced example, but like my point is that you absolutely would deserve to win in this situation however it's next to impossible when they are just numerically stronger than you, and regardless of comps, have far easier kill conditions at this point. the merit of the sort of game where you can fight again after dying is that you can adapt to your last death. and even use knowledge of how the enemy got that kill to trick them and kill them of course that's a thing in awesomenauts, but progression systems are typically gonna be just as, if not more, influential in who kills than actual mind gaming like that.


honestly, id be down for some customs where the rate of passive solar gain was increased and solar gain off kills was disabled and level was locked at 10. but i know something like this would never pass ingame because omg its a moba lol ur supposed to have progression system xD

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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:47 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
As evidenced, I have yet to be told why it was a worthwhile introduction outside of nerfing damage upgrades.

Given that nerfing damage upgrades could have been done without the XP System ever being conceived, I do not count it as a valid reason.



thank you

everyone acts like xp fixed so many problems, but what happened is the balance was just * before xp system and the implementation of changes that fixed that balance so happened to come after xp system. xp did nothing to address, for example, genji, it was the cocoon rework, nectar nerf, etc that knocked him from godhood. in fact i cant think of a single balance change that wouldn't have been practical without xp system.

it also did nothing to increase build variety imo. yuri saw a more diverse minerow because his non dmg items got buffed, he lost a dmg upgrade, and got a new form of sustain, as an example. clocks frog became a thing because people realized it was good (and were using it before xp system too), not because they went "oh man hammers pants does less damage at the beginning of the game than it used to"

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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:59 pm 
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I'm just going to chime in and say that the XP system is yet to add anything out side of bonus turret damage to the game, and is a source of needless complexity. I've said it from the start, it was the absolute mass of balance changes that happened the same patch as the XP system, but had no iteraction with the XP system, are what changed the state of the game.

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
honestly, id be down for some customs where the rate of passive solar gain was increased and solar gain off kills was disabled and level was locked at 10. but i know something like this would never pass ingame because omg its a moba lol ur supposed to have progression system xD

I've played a few of customs without levels and they feel pretty much the same as live when it comes to dmg output, mainly it's just the turret tanking lategame that takes a hit and snowballing is less noticable. I prefer to lock the level at 1 since it keeps the damage numbers cleaner, well at least the ones that haven't been buchered to give +15% for the upgrade tooltip. The slightly difficult part is the loss of the slight HP scaling the leveling system gives, but it's honestly barely noticable until quite late into the game. Personally I like to add in a 1.1x HP multiplier to the settings to offset this, feels about right mid-lategame and is very similar to live. Makes you a little bit tankier early tho, does slow earlygame down a bit. I like it tho since earlygame can't decide the game anymore, an early wipe in live can put you at an insane disadvantage.

You can fix the HP scaling thing custom maps tho, you can create level scaling over time, so scale from levels 1 to 10 over the first 15min. I don't like it so much tho since it has the same issue of numbers constantly changing for no reason; the main reason I've always hated the XP system from the start was it was complexity without depth.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 pretty random things
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:36 am 
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hmm my memory of the time of making this thread is blank so ya...
tbf mostly what has bothered me over time is that factor of constantly changing numbers that inhibit predictiveness etc


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