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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:26 am 
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Joost wrote:
What do you think? Should the top 10% players wait twice as long for better matchmaking?



YES, YES and YES. There is no doubt that we need this. I am waiting so long for this


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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:01 pm 
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What about the idea of making premades also wait for two rounds of matchmaking, just like the top 10%, to find another premade? It seems that would be like hitting two big flies with one stone.

I feel people aren't just in agreement of the top 10% waiting longer, they're practically begging for it. Yes, we NEED this.


Joost wrote:
League sizes are based on actual activity. The goal of the leagues was that in every league the number of players per hour would be the same. Since top players play a lot, top leagues are small. Bottom leagues contain a lot of inactive players and players who play very little, so those are huge. This was ideal for matchmaking back when leagues were used for matchmaking, because it meant every league had the same amount of matches to choose from.

I could name a very big exception to this rule. I have a parked account that I played with at the beginning of this season. When I stopped using that account, many months ago, it was around rank 2500. Guess what, it's still at the exact same rank, although I haven't touched it for months!

After I abandoned that account I started playing with another account (already much later in the season). Since then I have been playing much more every day with this new main account than with that old account. But I'm literally stuck at rank 3500-4000, no matter how many days go by. I'm already playing around 2-3 hours per day on average. But it seems utopical for me to reach the rank of that parked account at this point. How does that make sense from what you wrote about the model of top players playing a lot, if there are probably so many inactive accounts from the start of the season that are blocking those top ranks?

The solution is simple and is called rating decay of inactive players. I have asked about it personally in this thread, as several others. I'm not sure why you aren't addressing it.

EDIT: Btw., this is also another reason why actually good players stay lower than they should be and then get matched with low rating players so often.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Last edited by DeezNauts on Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:41 pm 
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DeezNauts wrote:
After I abandoned that account I started playing with another account (already much later in the season). Since then I have been playing much more every day with this new main account than with that old account. But I'm literally stuck at rank 3500-4000, no matter how many days go by. I'm already playing around 2-3 hours per day on average. But it seems utopical for me to reach the rank of that parked account at this point. How does that make sense from what you wrote about the model of top players playing a lot, if there are probably so many inactive accounts from the start of the season that are blocking those top spots?

The solution is simple and is called rating decay of inactive players. I have asked about it personally in this thread, as several others. I'm not sure why you aren't addressing it.

+1 dude

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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Joost wrote:
Xelrog wrote:
... Can I request that in situations like these, priority be given to pairing these teams up with opponents who are closer to the level of the more skilled player? If a L1 is playing with a L9, the opponents should be around L2. ...

We've been analysing whether this is true but it turns out to be really difficult to draw conclusions about what the best average skill for a premade is. Currently we just average the skills of the team, but this probably isn't correct. However, using L2 as the average of L1+L9 is very likely far off the mark. I've read a post by the devs of another MOBA where they said that high league players turn out to have have increased win percentage when they are in a premade, while low league players don't have any advantage. However, that's a different game so these results can't just be blindly applied to Awesomenauts.

If we do something more clever than just averaging premades, then we need to do something that is different based on how big the skill difference within the premade is and that is different for high league, mid league and low league players. Datamining all match results and analysing it in a way that is statistically sound takes time and we haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is no average. That's what I'm saying. There is absolutely no mathematical way to successfully average such a widely disparate skill gap in any meaningful way. The game will be ruined for someone, there is absolutely no avoiding that.

Ruin it for fewer people rather than more, and for the player who knows to expect it. You'll greatly minimize the impact.

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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Joost wrote:
If we do something more clever than just averaging premades, then we need to do something that is different based on how big the skill difference within the premade is and that is different for high league, mid league and low league players. Datamining all match results and analysing it in a way that is statistically sound takes time and we haven't gotten around to that yet.


To me at least, the whole issue of how to weight all of these various factors sounds like a close to perfect problem for machine learning.


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 Post subject: \
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:08 am 
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btw increasing the duration of the rating decrease for new players isnt solving the problme. its not that people who should be 12000 rating are accidentally becoming 16000 rating, its that 12000 rating gets paired vs 16000+ rating despite having only 12000


the super simple solution to this is to be like every single competitive matchmaking ever and make that impossible to happen. now league 1s/2s are premading basically every single match and you cant blame them at all, because we're playing a game right now where league 1 actually plays with league 6. and its not an anomaly or anything, honestly the balanced matches are the anomalies. I played against the same 22 hour ayla 2 times in a row and once he was on my team. 3 times in a row. he was league 7. i just had league 6 genji on my team.

but no, both the high hour player and the low hour player is going to not be retained. im going to want to invite my other high rank friend because i dont want a league 6 genji on my team, no offense to him. then, guess what. i just made matchmaking worse. its gonna put me vs 3 league 3/4s and when they have to play a l1 pre, guess what? theyre gonna not wanna play. make it impossible. it is your only solution, its what everyone keeps saying and youre bleeding players

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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:36 am 
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Honestly, everybody should just wait longer if it means better matches.

I was very perplexed that better matchmaking wasn't planned from the start of F2P. With all those new players we only got a few minute shorter wait time, but no better matchmaking. This just felt like a huge waste of resources to me. Wasn't the whole point of F2P to get more players AND improve the matchmaking through that? I thought the second part wasn't even attempted. Yes, you got more players but wasn't the idea with that to improve the in-game experience for everybody, not just the wait time in queue? (It's not like this wasn't a huge known problem even after Galactron launch).

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Last edited by DeezNauts on Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:47 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
Honestly, everybody should just wait longer if it means better matches.

I was very perplexed that better matchmaking wasn't planned from the start of F2P. With all those new players we only got a few minute shorter wait time, but no better matchmaking, which just felt to me like a huge waste. I think it should have been a no-brainer to use those gains in players for better matchmaking from the start (it's not like this wasn't a huge known problem even after Galactron launch).



honestly, everyone kept saying "oh its just gonna be the same as another patch or f2p weekend, huge influx for one period then it just dies off and goes back to normal" and i ignored all that i thought that they were being unreasonably pessimistic. and they were 100% right.

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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:17 am 
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RamenFrog wrote:
Lunk The Hero wrote:
How about no more bot/half assed matches when mm can't find enough people for a 3v3, much rather to just keep waiting.

I'll go into bot q if I want games with bots in them


This^

I'm fine with waiting a bit more to have consistent matches. I've run into a few cases where it was a 2v3 and I feel like garbage when it's on the opposing team.


+1 for this as well.

Perhaps have a visible checkbox that you can tick / untick when queue starts / resets that says start bot round after X period? (and have this ticked off by default) This way those who can't wait, don't need to. And those who want to wait for better quality matches, can. There are plenty of other things I can do while waiting - because you know, I actually DO want to play a proper Awesomenauts match with other humans, even if I occasionally pick Sentry.

This is especially frustrating when you are in a region where there are seemingly not a lot of closeby players, so you waste time being forced into a bot match, waiting for drop pod to land, and then finally 'safe to leave game' before having to jump back into queue.


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 Post subject: Re: An update on matchmaker development
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:26 am 
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Joost wrote:
What do you think? Should the top 10% players wait twice as long for better matchmaking?


Your top 1000 players are your most dedicated and likely to stick around after getting burned by a failed experiment. So I'd say it's worth a shot.

But the inactive accounts parked in in the top spots need to be addressed, or this will 100% fail due to a lack of actual players for matchmaking.

... or maybe, if you can't do that, you'd have to expand this matchmaking range to the top 15% of player or something, to compensate for the duds not doing anything.

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