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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:38 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
what is that? assume not everyone knows what spreadsheet this is, please. it looks like it could be my winrate among various nauts, i mean.


I believe it's the draft pickrates from the recently completed Rookie Royale.

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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
Do you actually think that a patch saying "Yuri reworked!" is going to bring in any new players at all? They have no idea who Yuri is or what he was before, why the hell would they download Awesomenauts for that? Would it be on gaming websites like PCGamer to draw massive attention to the patch? No. It brings in no new players

When people like niki, bodyhunter, Japie etc just tell me on Steam "yeah I don't want to play until Ronimo sorts their * out", this is what really hurts the most rather than some league 7 leaving the game because he died twice to something he thought was unfair.


Wow time for a reality check -

New players don't know or care who you guys are.
New players don't know when you guys take a rage break from the game because they don't know who you are.
New players have literally no clue that these guys are telling you this stuff on steam.
New player probably won't read this either
Lots of new players don't even know a leaderboard exists (and thus they don't even know top players exist)

If you don't understand why a L7 player quitting the game out of frustration would be a big deal, maybe you should try to run a f2p business. Forgive me if you do already.

It's not about drawing in new players because yuri got a rework. It's about new players randomly picking the game up one day because they like the art or whatever. They try yuri because they like monkeys and jet packs, and they start having fun with him from day 1. This is the stuff ronimo is really trying to solve. you may disagree with their priorities, but I'd bet money that ronimo is working on more than a few character reworks right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Location: In the land of someone else's imagination; occasionally also marking someone else's imagination.
I am afraid that, no matter how extraordinarily entertaining they could make playing Yuri, the newer players are not going to stick around to have fun as him while they are being matched against the very best players, as they were for the entirety of the beginning of the F2P launch (and still are in some cases). At any rate, I would say that quite a few players do turn to the top players for guides, even if it is only to copy them exactly. They seek reassurance of some sort that it is "not just them."

Yuri could be the most invigorating and most incredibly fun character to play in any video game ever, but so long as I can nail them right between the eyes from across the map as Rocco each and every time they try to enjoy themselves, they will have no fun at all. That is pretty much all that was happening. It was not a good impression.

This sort of issue should have been addressed before the F2P launch when live. The problem being, and hence the "lack of faith" in some cases, is that nothing was done despite our prior warnings. Now that the launch has happened, and we have exposed all the potential newcomers to the uproarious fun of being routinely being disassembled by Ayla and Raelynn, very few of them seem to want to stay, as evident in the previously linked graph that we all like to wallow in.

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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:44 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
Sam! wrote:
Do you actually think that a patch saying "Yuri reworked!" is going to bring in any new players at all? They have no idea who Yuri is or what he was before, why the hell would they download Awesomenauts for that? Would it be on gaming websites like PCGamer to draw massive attention to the patch? No. It brings in no new players

When people like niki, bodyhunter, Japie etc just tell me on Steam "yeah I don't want to play until Ronimo sorts their * out", this is what really hurts the most rather than some league 7 leaving the game because he died twice to something he thought was unfair.


Wow time for a reality check -

New players don't know or care who you guys are.
New players don't know when you guys take a rage break from the game because they don't know who you are.
New players have literally no clue that these guys are telling you this stuff on steam.
New player probably won't read this either
Lots of new players don't even know a leaderboard exists (and thus they don't even know top players exist)

I have no idea how is it referencing to the quote you made.

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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:04 pm 
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TBH I don't understand your post either :D

The gist of the post I quoted was that new players should care that old players are mad. In reality, the new players don't know the first thing about the drama here & they probably don't care either. They just want to have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Ok, I feel like a need to clear up a few misconceptions.

Misconception One
Balance matters for people who just got into the game.

Fortunately that is not true. Newcomers have absolutely no idea what goes on in the game. How can they complain about a character being op? They don't know anything, they don't know the meta. They don't know what Nauts are capable of, they don't know how to counter play and many of them don't understand teamwork. On top of that, none of this matters in low level play anyway. Even in dota, where the majority of the people form a bulk between 3K to 4K mmr, teamcomps only really start to matter around 5K.


Misconception Two
Veterans don't care for what happens in lower pubs or anything about player retention and are against any effort Ronimo puts to amend that.

Also fortunately not true.
Before you tackle this statement you need to bring up another statement:
What solutions will have a positive effect on the community?
Veteran players have a lot of experience with the game, and likely experience in general in terms of video games. As a developer, Ronimo does not have as high of an understanding of the current game industry. As paradoxical as that may sound. That is because they are merely a spectator and don't undergo themselves what other people go through.
And yes, I understand that Ronimo can and do play their own game, but as a dev they know what goes on in the game. They know how it was designed so they'll still have a completely different view and experience on it.


Instead of that I'd like to elaborate further by making two new statements:



People always seek something to put the blame on

People don't like losing, it's a very natural behaviour and is completely normal.
There are so many factors that can and will contribute to a loss for a newcomer:
- lack of game knowledge
- bad situational awareness
- lack of mechanical skill (mostly from a muscle memory standpoint)
- some characters being easier to play than others (risk vs reward)
- lack of game balance
- pubstompers on the enemy team
- a L1 that somehow got matchmade against them because that still happens. (so matchmaking)
- lag

Ok, you take away pubstompers, nice! What happens now?
They'll blame their loss on any of the other previously stated reasons and still get mad and leave. There's probably a small portion of people that give up on the game because of pubstompers, but it's never a defining reason.
Getting rid of pubstompers solves absolutely nothing



People inside the current balance group do put in effort to make the game more fun for several parts of the community


Initially there was a lot of anger when the Derpl, Yuri and Ted reworks came about.
Of course a portion of it comes from the kneejerk reaction of disliking change.
But a lot of it came from the fact that Ronimo poorly communicated this (Yuri changes), poorly implemented the changes (Derpl Changes) or the changes simply did absolutely nothing to complete their initial goal (Like the Ted changes).

Since then the group has tried to come up with ways to implement what Ronimo proposed in ways that they'll still have their desired effect without breaking the character. (Such as putting throwing mines on an upgrade rather than at base with a base mine damage nerf).

And here's a kicker:
The balance group was the one that pushed for a Derpl rework
So anyone that says that veterans don't care about fun and reducing the pubstompiness of characters don't actually know what goes on there.

Changes like this have to be approached carefully which is why they haven't made their way in the game yet, but it's not that the balance group opposes Ronimo's will of making Yuri and Derpl easier to play and deal with.



And my god, anyone who says that the balance should be directed to people with sub 50 hours, please rethink that statement. Seriously.

I can understand tailoring general game design, GUI, tutorial and user friendliness to them. (in fact, they are the group to whom it's most important to)
But if you say this about gamebalance then I'll have a difficult time taking anything you say seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
But if you say this about gamebalance then I'll have a difficult time taking anything you say seriously.


It's already hard to take them seriously because player apparently want ronimo to jump on the graveyard with ronimo themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:42 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
The gist of the post I quoted was that new players should care that old players are mad. In reality, the new players don't know the first thing about the drama here & they probably don't care either. They just want to have fun.

No where in the post you quoted did they even imply that new players should care that old players are mad.

They were saying Ronimo should care about what the old players say because the old players understand the game from a gameplay perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:01 am 
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allstarsniper32 wrote:
No where in the post you quoted did they even imply that new players should care that old players are mad.

They were saying Ronimo should care about what the old players say because the old players understand the game from a gameplay perspective.


maybe my reading comprehension was failing me a tad this morning!

Sam! wrote:
When people like niki, bodyhunter, Japie etc just tell me on Steam "yeah I don't want to play until Ronimo sorts their * out", this is what really hurts the most rather than some league 7 leaving the game because he died twice to something he thought was unfair.


but i don't think i'm that far off. sam's post had a lot to do with reworking yuri not mattering much - it won't bring in new players (his words), it doesn't matter if some new player gets frustrated and quits (his words). that old players taking a break matters more for the game (his words).

& i think hemmoraging new players matters way more than ticking off a handful of old timers. it's way more important to make sure new players have a better experience than to appease some old timers who already got their 1000s of hours of entertainment out of the game.

the connection i failed to properly explain this morning was that new players only care about having fun in the game. yes, old players getting mad is another problem with the game, but new players really don't give a * about that stuff.

i'd really like to meet a person who started and kept playing nauts because of the top players of the day. i'd bet that pretty much everybody here either started playing awesomenauts because it looked cool or because a friend was into it.

i dunno. maybe i completely misunderstood sam's post. i guess ronimo should care about * off old players, but that really shouldn't be a priority right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Real lack of faith recently
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:27 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
allstarsniper32 wrote:
No where in the post you quoted did they even imply that new players should care that old players are mad.

They were saying Ronimo should care about what the old players say because the old players understand the game from a gameplay perspective.


maybe my reading comprehension was failing me a tad this morning!

np, I know I read things way too late when I shouldn't

robochase6000 wrote:
the connection i failed to properly explain this morning was that new players only care about having fun in the game. yes, old players getting mad is another problem with the game, but new players really don't give a * about that stuff.

i'd really like to meet a person who started and kept playing nauts because of the top players of the day. i'd bet that pretty much everybody here either started playing awesomenauts because it looked cool or because a friend was into it.

i dunno. maybe i completely misunderstood sam's post. i guess ronimo should care about * off old players, but that really shouldn't be a priority right now.

I'm not sure where to start. How about here?

but new players really don't give a * about that stuff.

Here's the thing, new players don't care about things like old players leaving or even "pro" players at the current time of a game. But new players are also less likely to care about how balance affects the game in different ways. And not only that, they are even less able to tell what things can and should be balanced for an actual balanced game.

The other day I was in a match against a Leon who's sole strat was to sit in one lane pushing a turret, my team got all of their turrets before they got that one constantly pushed turret. Their words? "your whole team is cancer." I check their profile and they had less than 100 hours in game. How do you think they would want the game to be balanced?

What needs to happen, is there needs to be a balance of things that lure in new players but enough depth to keep the vets.


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