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 Post subject: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:21 pm 
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You (Ronimo) have not innovatively figured something out that has gone over the heads of every MOBA developer ever. The lack of drafts isn't a 'casual' feature nor is it improving the amount of time or effort it takes to get into a game. All it accomplishes is a complete RNG aspect to the game. Similar to the old build loadout system, where you had to pick your build at character select, nauts diversity is limited because its too easy, especially for a soloqer, to lost completely at character select. Nauts like Voltar or Rocco still have troubles soloqing because if you happen to wind up against Frog/Swiggins/Leon, guess what? You just lost. It's too much of a gamble to play those nauts, so people naturally gravitate towards the soloq nauts that are more consistent against a wider variety of nauts. You have nauts like Scoop or Sentry where are basically poop or god in soloq and it feels like what nauts the opponents happen to pick is nearly as large of a factor as skill and teamwork. That is just not good game design.

Your lack of drafts isn't preventing a situation where people can't play the naut they want to play; you do NOT have to have bans in order to do a draft mode. 3 blind picks is all it takes. Do it so that each player is assigned a #1-3. #1 for each team goes first, they pick, and simultaneously their naut pick is revealed to both sides Do the same with 2, and then the same with 3. Voila, ez pz, you can play Clunk or Ayla just as much as you did previously, however if you last pick them into double knockbacks then that's your fault rather than the RNG element.

Your lack of drafts isn't making matches start faster. Make each pick round last 20 seconds. This results in 1 minute MAX at character select. It also makes character select more interesting once you've picked your nauts and thus less tedious to stare at.

The very fact that RankCheck had to be banned/modified demonstrates how much matchups matter and are a white elephant that needs to be addressed. Instead of UNSUCCESSFULLY trying to make matchups matter less (as the Balance Discord has extremely naively discussed in the past), embrace matchups a a feature like every single MOBA ever instead of pretending that your game removed RNG years ago when the biggest most factual omnipresent RNG is still in every single match.

Quit saying stupid * like "it makes it less casual!!!". No, not being able to play certain nauts because depending on rng you won't be able to leave your turret the whole game is far less casual than a basic draft mode that exists in some form in every single MOBA ever. It's no more of a 'casual focused feature' as the old drop in/drop out gameplay. If you're going to argue that "drafts make the game more competitive/less casual" I challenge you to reasonably define both of those words, competitive and casual, and then explain how drafting makes the game more competitive and less casual.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and toss this out here in the OP, I challenge every single person who disagrees with drafts to link a single draft from nautsdrafter.com that they've been a part of. Everytime this topic comes up, all the people who disagree, correct me if I'm mistaken, either have literally never tried drafting or haven't in years.

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Last edited by MrPillowTheGreat on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:27 pm 
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and I'm not gonna pretend that my personal problems with the game are problems that everyone agrees on and is part of the reason that the playerbase is dwindling, but everytime you inject p[layers you lose them. Your max player peak is already less than 50% of what it was at F2P launch and the average concurrent players has fallen by another 200 in the past 30 days, so objectively the current status quo isn't retaining players. There's a lot of different reasons why (and I do believe the frustration of certain matchups is a part of it), and Ronimo needs to figure out why or the game will be back where it started before F2P.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:34 pm 
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...in a separate queue.

Lack of drafts is very much a casual feature and making them mandatory would absolutely drive off potential new players. It would have stopped me from playing the game immediately, and I wouldn't be here today.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:34 pm 
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Drafting intimidates new players. I do agree that it would be good for top level players, and even average players.

You would have to split the queues for this to work imo.

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
If you're going to argue that "drafts make the game more competitive/less casual" I challenge you to reasonably define both of those words, competitive and casual, and then explain how drafting makes the game more competitive and less casual.


competitive gameplay shifts the focus more towards victory rather than enjoyment. While these things certainly aren't mutually exclusive (victory and fun) a more competitive environment discourages sub-optimal plays that are fun in favour of the best way to win in that situation.
casual gameplay is the opposite. The priority for these players is enjoying the game rather than winning. The focus is less on "what is the best way to win?" but "what is the most fun I can have here". Again these aren't mutually exclusive. You can get casual players who have the most fun by winning.

Drafting would make the game more competitive because matchups are something you can win or lose. Having a clearer system to dictate this inherently makes the game more competitive

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
Also, I'm going to go ahead and toss this out here in the OP, I challenge every single person who disagrees with drafts to link a single draft from nautsdrafter.com that they've been a part of. Everytime this topic comes up, all the people who disagree, correct me if I'm mistaken, either have literally never tried drafting or haven't in years.

http://www.nautsdrafter.com/draftpage.php?code=2a3e08395fdf549f9ed1c4f2f1391a25&style=_rumble
+ many others.
Don't assume the entire comp scene would be behind you here pillow

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:50 pm 
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eddster27 wrote:
Drafting intimidates new players. I do agree that it would be good for top level players, and even average players.

You would have to split the queues for this to work imo.

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
If you're going to argue that "drafts make the game more competitive/less casual" I challenge you to reasonably define both of those words, competitive and casual, and then explain how drafting makes the game more competitive and less casual.


competitive gameplay shifts the focus more towards victory rather than enjoyment. While these things certainly aren't mutually exclusive (victory and fun) a more competitive environment discourages sub-optimal plays that are fun in favour of the best way to win in that situation.
casual gameplay is the opposite. The priority for these players is enjoying the game rather than winning. The focus is less on "what is the best way to win?" but "what is the most fun I can have here". Again these aren't mutually exclusive. You can get casual players who have the most fun by winning.

Drafting would make the game more competitive because matchups are something you can win or lose. Having a clearer system to dictate this inherently makes the game more competitive


I would argue that matchups are also something enjoyable or not enjoyable in addition to being something you can win or lose. While enjoyment is obviously subjective, to say that dictating matchups matters more for winning than it does for game enjoyment is also subjective. I would also argue that it is a moot point as drafts makes the game both enjoyable and puts more control in the player's hands as far as the ability to win goes. So by your definitions, I would say a netgain on both competitive and casual happens with drafts, as I see zero situation where a lackup of control on matchups is more enjoyable (and thus more casual).

Quote:
http://www.nautsdrafter.com/draftpage.php?code=2a3e08395fdf549f9ed1c4f2f1391a25&style=_rumble
+ many others.
Don't assume the entire comp scene would be behind you here pillow


Well this was more about the fact that every single time I see someone criticize the idea of drafts in pubs, I don't believe that they've ever played with drafts, or if they have they have not tried it in years. I also specifically related this to being against drafts in general and not my specific talking points. I don't expect the competitive scene to be completely behind me, otherwise I would have said "if you disagree with the points I'm making, show me a draft you've even done" I'm talking about drafts in general without getting into the nitty gritty of how its implemented. And you yourself just said it would be good for top players, and even average players, so unless I misinterpreted you you're just reinforcing my point by verifying that you've drafted.

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Last edited by MrPillowTheGreat on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Xelrog wrote:
...in a separate queue.

Lack of drafts is very much a casual feature and making them mandatory would absolutely drive off potential new players. It would have stopped me from playing the game immediately, and I wouldn't be here today.



Drafts is a very much a casual feature and making them not mandatory would absolutely drive off potential new players.

srsly tho it's hard to consider how it could have stopped you from playing the game if you don't explain why.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:36 am 
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literally most of the community just want to play, not all of them care about matchups or who plays who.

stop trying to force mandatory controversial methods because you want to counterpick in pubs.

not sure if you ever did other moba drafting but I can tell you this:

most drafts are organized with a bunch of people, one chosen to be the captain of who bans or picks, starting with bans and picks all while each member of the team is arguing of who's better who to ban and all that. It can take five minutes based on proper drafting rules and thinking time

That will never work in a game where people can turn off chat

That will never work in a game where most of the community don't care about being competitive.

And it won't ever happen because ronimo want to help both the above groups.

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Last edited by Wakkabanana on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:43 am 
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No idea how the drafting thing would work, but i guess it would be worth a try


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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:40 am 
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The first time I drafted was for the Rookie Royale, and actually I was kind of more intimidated by that than satisfied. I know, it's good to know what enemies you will be facing, but pub players always will choose the nauts they want to play. I do that most of the time even in case my team isn't profiting of my pick. If you play characters like Rocco, you have to face the consequences in case of a Rocco vs Frog matchup or anything similar. That's what pubs are about.

Another fact that destroys the idea of drafts in game is the fact that people need to buy their nauts. If all of the nauts that I own are banned or already chosen, and then, if all of the "free rotation" nauts I have access too are bad for the matchup I am facing, what options do I have in such a case? Only bad ones.

If you want drafts, do them in private games with things like nautsdrafter, but do not add drafts to pub games.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:49 am 
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I mean, dota has forced drafts, but I doubt it would translate well to this game and its super casual nature.

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