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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 pm 
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From my short time using Marukyu's tool, I rarely (maybe never) got into matches with anyone more than 1 league away from me. So Matchmaking seemed pretty good on that front. Just a lot of the people were just surprisingly bad anyway, implying they were either somehow placed far too high on the leaderboard, or leagues are a horribly bad representation of skill right now, or both.

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:53 pm 
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I'll say the same thing I said to Dennis earlier as well: Yes, all of your points are valid and Galactron / Matchmaking works fine; however, it's the rating assignment itself which is the problem.

I got a match yesterday which I linked where people went 0/12 and 0/8 or something on my team; if you check their rating, the matchmaker probably saw they were the "best fit" for the match despite them playing like new players. So, there in-lies the problem; the matchmaker did its job very well, but the rating system considered their skills with 100 and 200 hours to be equivalent to the enemy team, which had 1000, 3000, and 600 (while I have 2.3k currently I believe). In one of the previous matches I faced eddster as well, whom I actually enjoyed that match against even though I'm pretty sure I lost because there was no major skill gap between our teams (both of them were pretty balanced skill-wise from what I remember).

At the very least, make the average rating of each team matter less and try to focus on grouping people of similar skill together on teams instead; that is, instead of having teams where there's someone with 14000 rating and 16000 rating, make them both have around 15500 or the same amount. Using the rank checker for 2 or 3 weeks, I saw that it prefers to do the former instead, and a lot of the % checks were completely perfect matches from THAT standpoint (i.e. the teams were within' 5 average rating of each other, which is near perfect) while disregarding individual teams rating disparities.

If your checking tool uses team averages with questionable rating / skill appropriation at the moment, it's going to almost always say that every match is perfect even if you have a L9 and a L1 on both teams and it's horrendous because that's "statistically" an adequate match-up.

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:26 pm 
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Sryder13 wrote:
From my short time using Marukyu's tool, I rarely (maybe never) got into matches with anyone more than 1 league away from me. So Matchmaking seemed pretty good on that front. Just a lot of the people were just surprisingly bad anyway, implying they were either somehow placed far too high on the leaderboard, or leagues are a horribly bad representation of skill right now, or both.


Skill levels in leagues has always been wildly inconsistent. The diff between players in L1 is huge and that's only 250 players

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:36 am 
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Dennis wrote:
Thanks for your feedback. You raise some valid concerns (and there have been several of these kinds of topics with similar remarks), so please allow me to point out some counter-arguments

Thanks for the detailed answer, Dennis. I think we at least agree that some things don't work. But where I disagree with you is that they "can't" work. Let me answer all your points:

It doesn't account for the Nauts you or your Team are good at or aren't good at.
It doesn't account for win-rate of certain Nauts. Nauts that have a high win-rate probably should be put into higher ranked games.

Matchmaking can't take these into consideration since character selection happens after being matched. We could've chosen to select a character before queueing, but then you can't synergize with your teammates and you'll have to hope you're put into a team comp to your liking, so we kept it as it was.

Right here you said it can't be done. Just do a cost-benefit calculation and I think you'll come to the conclusion that the cost of bad matchmaking that puts you in unwinnable matches with people who are just trying out a different char (you do have 30 Nauts), or when you try out a different char yourself and just suck, far outweighs the benefit of a team char select screen. Matchmaking is by far the biggest reason why people leave. On the other hand, nobody is going to leave because they can't pick a Naut that fits their team. I would even argue that if there isn't going to be a real draft system against the enemy team, the benefit of your pick is an illusion. Matchmaking outweighs this by really far. It's not like we didn't have a system before Galactron where you just picked your Naut and nobody complained like they do now about matchmaking, or just outright leave because it's so bad. I can't say it enough, it's absolutely vital for this game to have good matchmaking. This is actually a big thing (elephant) compared to a small thing (mouse). If you prioritize anything else before it, like you did with this character select screen, it will only lead to much more frustration..

It places L1 players with L5 players.
We've checked some numbers, and found that while this kind of match is reported often, they were only ~0.5% of all matches. You could argue it should be 0%, and I would agree - however, in order to achieve this and still put everyone in a match means we need either more players or longer queue times, and most players really don't like waiting (yes, players also don't like huge skill differences, but again, these matches were only about 1 in 200).
Galactron already places a high emphasis on getting rating as close as possible, making this emphasis stronger means reducing things like ping and premade checks. There are plenty of arguments saying ping should be more important than rating, or the other way around, and we can't please both sides. Currently Galactron sligthly favors good ping.


As you say, it should be 0%. So increase wait times, and if it works it would be a small inconvenience for a massive benefit. Yea, nobody likes waiting but nobody also quits the game or gets depressed because of it. People absolutely do that after a horrible match and when you experience that feeling of dread often enough, you don't want to come back. If playing the game is so punishing, and for me it feels way more often than 0,5% of my games like that, why would anybody want to come back for more pain and suffering? Since it feels more like 30-40% in solo-queue.

But as Nekomian, Sryder13 and eddster27 said: The rating system itself seems to be the underlying problem here because it doesn't correctly reflect skill (more on that in the next points).

It allows people from L1 to pre with people from L5 when it should only allow them to pre with L2 max.
Indeed it does. Disallowing this or putting any kind of limitations on parties encourages smurfing, which is arguably worse. Aside from this, I believe being able to play with your friends regardless of rating is a positive thing about Awesomenauts.

Ok, that's fair. But I still think good matchmaking should take precedence over everything else. If something doesn't benefit matchmaking or suppresses it, it's probably bad design or not thought out well enough. This is just the reality. Do another cost-benefit calculation and even here matchmaking will come out on top, I guarantee. I never had fun playing with someone below my league anyway. When I tried it we were just getting crushed. No sane person would subject themselves to that more than a couple of times. If you want other features, first always make absolutely sure that matchmaking won't suffer because of them.

It thinks rating is all that matters when hours played and win-rate can also matter, or if you or your team only plays in premades or solo.
The rating system is built to self-balance - if their rating is too high, they're more likely to lose, lowering their rating to a more suitable number. Rating already is a combination of hours (matches) played and winrate, and given enough time, rating is the most accurate indication of a player's skill we can get. This is also why season resets are a bad idea.

I just can't believe that's true. That it's this perfect self-balancing system. I barely ever lose or gain any rating, so I'm practically stuck at the same rating for months now. This has been the case in all seasons since Galactron. When the season starts it's really easy to gain and lose rating, and the matches are very random skill wise. So if you're lucky you'll land on 17000 rating and a week later you can consider yourself a pro forever because after that you barely win or lose any rating anymore. But if you landed on 14000 rating in the first day, a week later you can't do anything about it anymore until the end of the season, unless you suddenly hardcore premade all the time. People do get stuck, no matter what rating they got at the start of the season. People who are on top, usually know how to get themselves there very early. It's usually done with premades, which I think should still have to be taken into account more.

Ok, what else matters for skill in matchmaking, which it doesn't take into account? It doesn't take some kind of average k/d/a into account, which is huge. But this has to come after per-Naut matchmaking comes first. There is so much more that can be done when you have per-Naut matchmaking.

It thinks skill in this game is linear according to rating, when actually it's more like exponential.
Not sure where you get this idea, Galactron already treats rating as exponential.

It does? From the looks of it when I used the RankCheck tool, I didn't come to that conclusion. I must have judged it too quickly then.

tl;dr: Never put anything above matchmaking in this game, where matchmaking has to suffer because of it. If you do that, you have to assume it's a bad design decision or needs to be thought out better. Else you will only bleed players and your other features will never matter. Even past design decisions have to be completely reverted, no matter how much it costs, to make sure the core experience is kept fun, which vitally depends on good matchmaking. Matchmaking is the first and most important pillar on which this game stands or breaks right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:31 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
Just do a cost-benefit calculation and I think you'll come to the conclusion that the cost of bad matchmaking that puts you in unwinnable matches with people who are just trying out a different char (you do have 30 Nauts), or when you try out a different char yourself and just suck, far outweighs the benefit of a team char select screen.

In this case, no it doesn't. :shrug:

DeezNauts wrote:
As you say, it should be 0%. So increase wait times, and if it works it would be a small inconvenience for a massive benefit. Yea, nobody likes waiting but nobody also quits the game or gets depressed because of it. People absolutely do that after a horrible match and when you experience that feeling of dread often enough, you don't want to come back. If playing the game is so punishing, and for me it feels way more often than 0,5% of my games like that, why would anybody want to come back for more pain and suffering? Since it feels more like 30-40% in solo-queue.

You misunderstand. It's happening in 30-40% of the games played by 0.5% of the players. You are in that 0.5%. 0.5% is still 0.5%, and just simply increasing the matchmaking time would do nothing to the underlying problem here because it's not happening to the other 99.5% of players. Maybe those aren't exact numbers, but I'm part of the body of players who are not experiencing the kinds of L1/L5 matches a handful of forumers are describing. As someone in the thick of L2, matchmaking has been perfectly fine for me.

There needs to be another approach. Like, say, hard limits on ranking, at least among the high-level players being affected. Of course, even that would probably only be a temporary solution until someone finds out why these big discrepancy matches are happening in the first place. As big as L2 is right now, it's understandable that some newbies are going to wind up in pro matches, but L1 and L5 together should never happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:17 am 
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Xelrog wrote:
In this case, no it doesn't. :shrug:

Bad matchmaking isn't only happening to 0,5% of players. That is just ridiculous to assume. It's more like the opposite 99,5% who is completely frustrated with matchmaking. It seems like everybody else, besides you, agrees that it's bad at least a large portion of time (my number is 30-40% but it can be different for others). But that portion is large enough for me to not want to play at all. And that's coming from a hardcore fan of this game. If it's even close to what others are experiencing, then people are just straight up leaving this game after a few matches like this. Retaining players is Ronimo's prime directive, not having a bunch of features, especially when good matchmaking has to give way for a feature. In what kind of world doesn't it outweigh the cost of a player select screen?!

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:39 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
Xelrog wrote:
In this case, no it doesn't. :shrug:

Bad matchmaking isn't only happening to 0,5% of players. That is just ridiculous to assume.

I think I read a lot more posts on this forum than you do and recognize when it's the same posters repeating themselves. But feel free to tally up some numbers. If you're trying to disprove Dennis, you're the one with the burden of proof.

I think the real number's higher than 0.5%, but it's nowhere close to a majority of all Awesomenauts players across all leagues.

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:32 am 
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Xelrog wrote:
I think I read a lot more posts on this forum than you do and recognize when it's the same posters repeating themselves. But feel free to tally up some numbers. If you're trying to disprove Dennis, you're the one with the burden of proof.

I just had this game in solo-queue and I was the blue Frog. Yea, matchmaking is totally only broken for me. Don't you think that games where skill is so different should never happen? How much fun do you think the red team had in this game? Why are you defending a system that doesn't do what it's supposed to and prevent matches like this at all cost? I'm also sure that Leon quit for the night. Stop making excuses for this, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Here is another great matchmaking from just minutes ago. Leon had close to 600 hours but couldn't land a single tongue - I guess he was just starting to learn Leon. And the Smiles was also new to Smiles, I guess. Almost 20 minutes of this being on the red team can fry your brain, I kid you not. I can post these all day but I'm just showing the extremely bad ones. It really just takes one teammate who feeds like this to be just as bad. Tell me again how this is anecdotal or only effects 0,5%. :shrug:

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hurleybird wrote:
I'd advise to keep things simple. Focus on the fundamentals. Don't run (eg. complicated gimmicks) before you can walk (eg. figure out how to create fun, balanced maps).


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 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:25 pm 
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DeezNauts wrote:
- I guess he was just starting to learn Leon. And the Smiles was also new to Smiles, I guess.



There you just said it, and there is nothing to be done about this. Pre-selecting the nauts before queuing would suck big time..


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