Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ Awesomenauts



Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Author Message
 Post subject: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:51 pm
Posts: 218
We all know matchmaking has to be fixed, but I also think it always has been a downright broken, unfair and anti-fun experience in solo-queue from the very start to present. This is the only constant in Awesomenauts that I know everybody in this community agrees on. I even think other areas like balance and even lag have seen some improvement over the years... But no matter how much Ronimo does or promises to do about matchmaking, it keeps putting me in nightmare matches over and over and over and over again. Solo-queue is the most frustrating experience you can ever have right now. I can really only recommend it if you are into torture. Ronimo doesn't play the game so they seem to think it's a-ok.

Why is matchmaking so horrible? Here's a list in no particular order:

  • It doesn't account for the Nauts you or your Team are good at or aren't good at.

  • It doesn't account for win-rate of certain Nauts. Nauts that have a high win-rate probably should be put into higher ranked games.

  • It places L1 players with L5 players.

  • It allows people from L1 to pre with people from L5 when it should only allow them to pre with L2 max.

  • It thinks rating is all that matters when hours played and win-rate can also matter, or if you or your team only plays in premades or solo.

  • It thinks skill in this game is linear according to rating, when actually it's more like exponential.

To create perfect matchmaking all the points have to be addressed together to have synergy between them.

This has to be fixed or many people will leave the game. It's fun when it works, but when you get put into games that are simply not winnable from the beginning and you have to bear 20-30 minutes every time of nothing but being frustrated and turned off from the game, it's hell. I'm not just talking about games that you lose closely but at least have fun in the process. Those are great. I mean games where you don't have any chance of winning. Those are not one-off games, this happened to me in 3 out of 6 games today alone where I would have rather sat in a corner and stabbed myself with sharp objects rather than doing that. I don't know how many times we have to keep banging our heads on this, when will Ronimo realize matchmaking is the most important thing in this game?

_________________
The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:51 pm
Posts: 218
Here is an example screenshot of one of my games today. This kind of stuff happens all the time in Solo-queue! I was the Ted. I should never have been put in that team, period.

Image

_________________
The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:08 pm
Posts: 534
Location: Poland
You can't jump over these problems. You are calling for perfect matchmaking while we barely got a good matchmaking. If you wanted for matchmaker to adjust to your skill level of the naut you play you would have to choose naut before queueing which is just stupid. Also people can just have a bad day or something, you can't tell how good they are after just one match, you can't do it even after 3 matches. There are many things that can cause people play bad.

_________________
Steam -Rybak
:chew:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:13 pm 
Offline
Ronimo Team Member

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:10 pm
Posts: 1475
Thanks for your feedback. You raise some valid concerns (and there have been several of these kinds of topics with similar remarks), so please allow me to point out some counter-arguments:

It doesn't account for the Nauts you or your Team are good at or aren't good at.
It doesn't account for win-rate of certain Nauts. Nauts that have a high win-rate probably should be put into higher ranked games.

Matchmaking can't take these into consideration since character selection happens after being matched. We could've chosen to select a character before queueing, but then you can't synergize with your teammates and you'll have to hope you're put into a team comp to your liking, so we kept it as it was.

It places L1 players with L5 players.
We've checked some numbers, and found that while this kind of match is reported often, they were only ~0.5% of all matches. You could argue it should be 0%, and I would agree - however, in order to achieve this and still put everyone in a match means we need either more players or longer queue times, and most players really don't like waiting (yes, players also don't like huge skill differences, but again, these matches were only about 1 in 200).
Galactron already places a high emphasis on getting rating as close as possible, making this emphasis stronger means reducing things like ping and premade checks. There are plenty of arguments saying ping should be more important than rating, or the other way around, and we can't please both sides. Currently Galactron sligthly favors good ping.

It allows people from L1 to pre with people from L5 when it should only allow them to pre with L2 max.
Indeed it does. Disallowing this or putting any kind of limitations on parties encourages smurfing, which is arguably worse. Aside from this, I believe being able to play with your friends regardless of rating is a positive thing about Awesomenauts.

It thinks rating is all that matters when hours played and win-rate can also matter, or if you or your team only plays in premades or solo.
The rating system is built to self-balance - if their rating is too high, they're more likely to lose, lowering their rating to a more suitable number. Rating already is a combination of hours (matches) played and winrate, and given enough time, rating is the most accurate indication of a player's skill we can get. This is also why season resets are a bad idea.

It thinks skill in this game is linear according to rating, when actually it's more like exponential.
Not sure where you get this idea, Galactron already treats rating as exponential.

I hope you'll realize that there's just not a 'perfect' solution we can throw at Galactron to fix everything, and that I'm not simply being defensive. Aside from forum feedback we also monitor match quality, and the vast majority of matches are (at least statistically) really good, though naturally there are two ends to that spectrum. While we're open to suggestions, we can't afford to do major overhauls for a tiny improvement (e.g. character select before queueing, if it would be an improvement at all).

This post is not an attempt to invalidate your (and others') concerns, but to indicate that solutions tend to have repercussions for all players that may not immediately be clear, are difficult to implement, or both. People tend to forget or ignore these repercussions in order to make a point for improving their own experience. This is understandable, but for a proper discussion they need to be considered. That said, please do let us know if you (or anyone else) have any concrete suggestions we could use to improve the matchmaking experience for everyone.

tl;dr: Sorry that you've had such a bad experience with Galactron, but solutions tend to be complicated and/or impact players negatively on either side of the discussion - we're open to (concrete) suggestions, provided all perspectives are considered.

Also, 'Zork' would only replace 4 letter words, so the proper name would be 'Zurians Zurians'


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:36 pm
Posts: 5593
Location: Barrier Magazine Marketing Department
Glad to see feedback from a Ronimo dev on this thread. With that in mind, there are a few things I'd like to say on this topic:
  • It doesn't account for the Nauts you or your Team are good at or aren't good at.
Good players will usually pick something that's comfortable for them to play, but also works with the team composition of their allies. Whenever I see a team comp I always like to think about what it could need: a tank, CC (weak or strong? single or multiple? it's questions like these that make me chose between someone like Scoop or someone like Sentry), damage, wave clear... The list goes on, but the point is that on teams of 3 you can usually communicate what to pick during the generous picking time, even if you do so silently.

  • It doesn't account for win-rate of certain Nauts. Nauts that have a high win-rate probably should be put into higher ranked games.
Honestly, it shouldn't need to. Sure a one-trick Ayla main (because it's always one-trick Ayla mains...) might be able to play Ayla at a L2 level, but they probably play everyone else at around a L5 level purely due to lack of experience. And while Ayla can fit into quite a few comps there are thousands of teams that can easily make her completely useless (Lonestar, Genji, and Coco say hi) and quite a handful of comps where a different pick would be far more useful.
The fact of the matter is that if you instalock Ayla on a :derp: + :GnawShock: team you'll likely all get roflstomped into the ground. And spamming Ayla onto maps like Starstorm is a sure-fire way to lose.


  • It places L1 players with L5 players.
This. This is the problem with the matchmaker currently. I don't know why it does it, but it seems that the matchmaker favors good ping over balanced matches. This should not happen under any circomstance. Fighting a 300 ping player might be annoying, but at least it's a two way street. And no matter what their connection speed is, they're still operating at the same level as you. Fighting someone who's several leagues higher than you is fun for no one. It's not fun for the player who's being roflstomped for obvious reasons, and it isn't fun for the player doing the roflstomping because they aren't being challenged at all.
Matchmaking should prioritize rank over connection, not the other way around.


  • It allows people from L1 to pre with people from L5 when it should only allow them to pre with L2 max.
Sorta agree, sorta don't. This will always be a problem if Ronimo doesn't implement an unranked mode. "Boosting" your allies by carrying them is always annoying, but considering that the only thing you get in 'nauts for being high league are better games and bragging rights (unlike games like Overwatch with its sweet golden guns) it's not as big of an issue, and less people do it.

  • It thinks rating is all that matters when hours played and win-rate can also matter, or if you or your team only plays in premades or solo.
Win-rate should dictate League. It doesn't, but it should. Other than that hours don't directly relate to win-rate, and neither does playing in premades. Perhaps premades should be match with other premades, but that's the only real concern in regards to that.

  • It thinks skill in this game is linear according to rating, when actually it's more like exponential.
Opinion.txt. Also this directly relates to how it puts L5s against L1s, which I have already given my opinion about.

_________________
I was Chogi.
Emo Chapington wrote:
[Post brought to you by GuyBrush]
Alpha Z wrote:

Awesome :chucho: :scoop: :sleep: #BuffBoiCow
:think: [Femme :thumb: Fatal] Naut
Not a :glasses: :table:

Mafia stats.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:41 pm
Posts: 832
Dennis wrote:
It places L1 players with L5 players.
We've checked some numbers, and found that while this kind of match is reported often, they were only ~0.5% of all matches.


it feels a little wrong to look at this problem as a percentage of ALL matches.

How often does this happen among all L1 matches? The percentage is probably quite a bit higher.

_________________
if my teammates are good, i always win.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:11 pm
Posts: 24
I think the matchmaking right now is working ok for me. I know it cannot be perfect, nothing is.

It's exactly like above has been said, that the matchmaking won't help if I decide to play Sentry, 'Cause I want, even though I suck at it or it doesn't fit the combination at all.

Or we get a superb counter for our picks which just devastates our team. This can happen, it's part of this game.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:44 am
Posts: 1988
Location: Maybe far away or maybe real near by.
The problem isn't with the MMS. It's gotten much better since galactron. However, the problem still persists. Why? Because there aren't enough players playing.

If you are playing in a pool of 200 people, let's say that 3 are league 1, 1 person is league 2 everyone else is league 3 or lower. What happens? You get one team with 2 league 1s, another team with a league 1, a league 2, and the remaining players are filled in with players leagues 3 and lower.

The issue here is that the matchmaker doesn't have the proper resources in order to do it's job to the best of its ability.

If you want to get better matchmaking, bring more people into the game.

_________________
Diz Hydron wrote:
Catgame21234 wrote:
Hail Hydro

I'm not sure what I think about this. :think:


Winner of the Awesomenauts Guide Contest


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:16 pm
Posts: 9133
Location: Washington, USA
Dennis wrote:
It places L1 players with L5 players.
We've checked some numbers, and found that while this kind of match is reported often, they were only ~0.5% of all matches. You could argue it should be 0%, and I would agree - however, in order to achieve this and still put everyone in a match means we need either more players or longer queue times, and most players really don't like waiting (yes, players also don't like huge skill differences, but again, these matches were only about 1 in 200).

Dennis, if it's 0.5%, it's been an extremely vocal 0.5%. That 0.5% is about 20% to 40% of the presence on these forums, and I would presume the same for the Steam forums. That's the kind of negative publicity that affects a lot more than 0.5% of your playerbase.

This needs to be addressed, and it needs to be addressed now. The situation happening in 0.5% of matches means it's an outlier. Put a hard limit on L1 matches if you have to. Those players especially don't care about waiting another 5 minutes if it means they won't be matched with L4 or below, and there are plenty of other players for the L4- players to be queued with that aren't in L1. It should never happen.

_________________
Burningdillo wrote:


On Steam | On Twitch | On YouTube
Who's Your Awesomenaut?

Mains: :chew: :fist: :ayla:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Matchmaking is completely out of control!
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:18 pm
Posts: 208
Diz Hydron wrote:
The problem isn't with the MMS. It's gotten much better since galactron. However, the problem still persists. Why? Because there aren't enough players playing.

If you are playing in a pool of 200 people, let's say that 3 are league 1, 1 person is league 2 everyone else is league 3 or lower. What happens? You get one team with 2 league 1s, another team with a league 1, a league 2, and the remaining players are filled in with players leagues 3 and lower.

The issue here is that the matchmaker doesn't have the proper resources in order to do it's job to the best of its ability.

If you want to get better matchmaking, bring more people into the game.


Been there, done that. We've living past the point of no return.

The matchmaking had THE BEST chance to shine when F2P launched. It was absolutely critical that Ronimo put their best foot forwards and attract fresh blood.

The result? :drone: :drone: :drone: :drone: :drone:

It absolutely melted the servers. Remember how many 0:00 bugs we had where no matches were being made? Ronimo needed to send someone in on a Saturday (typically unheard of; we never see dev response on a weekend) to reboot the matchmaking server at least two times that I am aware of.

Despite of those missteps, matchmaking had another fatal flaw that wasn't addressed for a full 29 days (May 24th - June 21st): it was giving too much ranking points to the new comers. Fresh players were moving up the leaderboards much too fast and being placed into impossible matchups. We're talking 20-30 hours fresh, new players going up against hardcore L1 premades.

Here's the patchnotes on when a fix was finally rolled out:
https://www.awesomenauts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50482

I see the argument used over and over again that hours mean nothing and shouldn't be used in determining matchmaking. Yes, there are outliers (smurfs, natural pros at MOBAs/platforming, etc) but for the general mass populace, there is no greater learning tool than good old fashioned experience. I'm of the opinion that it takes a few hundred hours to be able to accurately recognize and assess threats in game and to give the appropriate responses.

I agree that much more than rating is needed to make matchmaking more reliable.

It's true. Matchmaking works absolutely best with large numbers of players with differing skills sets, experiences, and talent. Sadly, Ronimo wasn't ready for the influx and matchmaking failed us.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next