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 Post subject: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:12 pm 
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I tried to post this as a comment on Joost's blog post on matchmaking but it didn't get accepted. I wonder why. :roll:
https://joostdevblog.blogspot.de/2017/09/the-requirements-of-good-matchmaking.html

Here it goes:
"This whole post sounds like smoke and mirrors. Sounds like a bunch of bad excuses.

Matchmaking makes the game less fun currently and that's all that matters. Before your game was way more skill based and everyone excepted it (still don't know why you needed to change that). Now if you get into a bad match, almost no amount of training will help you carry since it has become that hard to carry bad team mates. There is literally no point in training or wanting to become good since everything is just relative to your team now and pretty much only depends on your luck in matchmaking. In short, what you wrote about extreme importance of skill is not there anymore in Awesomenauts. If you happen to get a good team you win, if you get a bad team you lose. I know it's not that simple but that is how it feels if you SoloQ, and everybody hates SoloQ right now.

It plays like RNG on crack and that can't be good for a game that is competitive in nature. Instead of banishing RNG elements, you made the whole pub experience depend on RNG (any matchmaking involves luck), unless you only play in a full premade all the time. If people say matchmaking is a-ok then I automatically know they either premade 100% of the time or just never play.

Either you remove the XP-System and the dependency on a good team (which you get by pure chance), or you make the matchmaking way better (which is a way harder task). Because right now it feels like we have the worst of both worlds -> A 50-50 chance to get a bad team and a heavy dependency on that team thanks to the XP-System and team levels. "Extreme importance of your own skill" is not there because it's all about your team now which is purely dependant on matchmaking and therefore RNG. Suddenly the whole game depends on horrible matchmaking!

Idiots will say I only say this because I'm bad or because I lose. Yea, because the player numbers are so great and everybody loves the XP-System, right? Look at the pathetic numbers and how many people were just tired of complaining about the XP-System and left?!

The leaving after the XP-System never actually stopped. The way XP and team level changed the whole player experience and the * matchmaking that started to shine through was just the dingle-berry on top which is still being felt today. If the game dies one day the XP-System will definitely be remembered as the knife that stabbed it in the back in a dark alleyway without any premonition. Or vice versa, changing the system to more like it was before XP will be remembered as the thing that reanimated it.

Why is that before the XP-System people almost never complained about their team? I honestly don't even remember people complaining about matchmaking before the XP-System. Everybody accepted they just sucked themselves if they couldn't carry. You could only hold yourself accountable for losing. You (Ronimo) just somehow took that accountability for winning as something bad and for some inexplicable reason changed it to full team dependency where you now need your team for everything and therefore matchmaking sadly became everything with it. Now we don't just lose because we're bad, but because we had * luck in matchmaking and got a horrible team to play with. I'd much rather go back to losing because I'm bad, no luck involved, and matchmaking not being this important. SoloQ feels like torture, how do you not see this? And most people want to SoloQ, not premade (remember casual moba...?)

Perception and unrealistic requirements of matchmaking and team dependence are two sides of the same coin. After the XP-System hit, was also when everything started to go downhill and matchmaking suddenly became that important without realizing why or the root of the problem... Now we have smoke and mirrors."

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Last edited by DeezNauts on Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:46 pm 
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The xp system is the biggest scapegoat Nauts has ever gotten ever since its release.

Before the XP system stomps were just as common before it was a thing because a 600 solar lead meant alot more pre-xp then a 600 solar lead nowadays. Ronimo did the XP patch to fix a fundamental problem with the game, and it worked to a degree (When the XP patch first came out it was terrible, but it's a good part of the game now). The XP patch gives an edge to the team in control of the game, but unlike solar which barely shifts it's bipolar in who is leading in XP. If the losing team gets a wipe on the winning team they're going to gain 1-2 levels on the spot, but solar will be less kind that 600 solar lead will go to a 456 solar lead (129 solar for the losing team, -25 to each naut on the enemy team killed, and then all nauts getting 30 solar on drop)

The XP Patch is part of the game now. Deal with it. The game isn't what you want it to be anymore I'm sure people don't want support from people who only say negative things about them which is just a general reason why I think that Ronimo looks at this community less and less

Also it's "accepted" :raehands:
edit: Fixed some numbers from bad math

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Last edited by Morrowsaw on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Because solar was preventing snowballs and carries.

Yeah sure, solar leads were so fun to deal against.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:24 pm 
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XP leads are way too hard to get back up from especially when it's 2+ levels. Solar leads however were just about how you played around with what items you currently have.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Slevens wrote:
XP leads are way too hard to get back up from especially when it's 2+ levels. Solar leads however were just about how you played around with what items you currently have.

Exactly. Solar leads didn't feel like you're playing against a whole team that just suddenly deals 10%-15% more damage than yours. Why do we need this imbalance by default bull*? You could definitely play around solar better than straight up 10% more damage and HP on everything, which feels like you're just playing a stupidly imbalanced game. (besides some Nauts already being imbalanced to begin with).

Did we all suddenly forget that Nauts was a game that depended on motor skills and being better than your opponent, not being bigger and stronger than your opponent and just being able to bully them with a level advantage, or being bullied? Does Smash Bros need team levels now, too? :facepalm:

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:30 pm 
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DeezNauts wrote:
Slevens wrote:
XP leads are way too hard to get back up from especially when it's 2+ levels. Solar leads however were just about how you played around with what items you currently have.

Exactly. Solar leads didn't feel like you're playing against a whole team that just suddenly deals 10%-15% more damage than yours. Why do we need this imbalance by default bull*? You could definitely play around solar better than straight up 10% more damage and HP on everything, which feels like you're just playing a stupidly imbalanced game. (besides some Nauts already being imbalanced to begin with).

Did we all suddenly forget that Nauts was a game that depended on motor skills and being better than your opponent, not being bigger and stronger than your opponent and just being able to bully them with a level advantage, or being bullied? Does Smash Bros need team levels now, too? :facepalm:


But they did because those 10% damage upgrades were 25%-40% dmg upgrades :shrug:

Everything scaling also made burst less relevant since in the late game you had 80% more health vs 60% more damage. Do I really have to explain why this is kinda overblown?

Assuming the average hp is 1350 which I think is fair you gain 54 hp per level
Let's also just use an example like say Vinnie assuming he dealt his maximum damage at level 1 (With dive being 577 and base bubble adding 35*3 which is 105) he gets 682 damage at level one.

So lets say he's the same level as the enemy
682 vs 1350
That means that Vinnie dealt 50.5% of the enemies hp.


Now let's assume he's level 1 vs a level 2 naut with average hp
682 vs 1404
That means he dealt 48.5% of the nauts hp. Is there a big difference here?

How about the crushing 2 level difference?

682 vs 1458
That means he dealt 46.7% of the enemies hp. Is this still a big difference?

The reality is that power spikes in nauts were alot larger pre-xp. These smaller ones were made so that instead of getting gigantic increases (Vinnie used to deal 700 damage at all times pre-xp) he instead gets built up to it since it made damage upgrades in general less oppressive. People never consider that before the XP patch Lonestar was terrorizing the game due to booming bullets getting some buffs and his early game upgrades giving way too much for their price. Now they aren't as good because he doesn't have his full power 5 mins in he acquires that power over the course of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:20 pm 
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Slevens wrote:
XP leads are way too hard to get back up from especially when it's 2+ levels. Solar leads however were just about how you played around with what items you currently have.

Morrowsaw wrote:
...he acquires that power over the course of the game...


No no no no ṇ̯ͦ̃̀̾͌o̼̞͛ͅ n͔̱̣͍̰̱ͤ̈̏ͅo̝̞ͣ͒ͬ n̻͕̦͉̫͈̦̠̪̤͕̲͔̺̓̊͐ͭ̍̐ͭ̓̋͒̒͂͌͂̾ͅo̖̥̹̬̺̥̭̤̜̠̤̯̲̩̞̮̬̬͒̆ͯ̎͌̉̎͐ͥ̉!̬͓̺̙̟͍̺̬̙͇͍̜̭̞̤̘̮̞̒̈́͛̏̆̈

This is not how the XP System works! The exact opposite of this happens!

Every time a team levels up, they gain +3% more base damage and +4% more base hitpoints. As a result, the longer a game goes on, the lower damage becomes as a percentage of a 'Naut's total hitpoints!

For the more mathematically inclined:

    At level 1, 122 damage to a 'Naut with 1,350 HP is equal to ~9.037% of their maximum HP

    At level 2, 125.7 (122 x 1.03) damage to a 'Naut with 1,404 (1,350 x 1.04) is merely ~8.95% of their maximum HP.

It decreases!

Now, obviously, teams do not level at the same rate, which is where the gradual increase in power comes in... except that is a lie as well! The greater the gap between the levels, the less XP the leading team generates (by -4% per level difference). So, realistically, the difference is not going to grow any further than three or four levels.

What does that do to damage?

    At level 1, 122 damage to a 'Naut with 1,350 HP is equal to ~9.037% of their maximum HP

    At level 5, 136.64 (122 x 1.12) damage to a 'Naut with 1,350 HP is ~10.12% of their maximum HP.

So, in an extreme case, instead of dealing ~9.037% of an average 'Naut's HP, you would instead deal ~10.12%.

That is not a nonexistent change, but it is hardly the unstoppable, power-accumulating snowball that some people think it is. So, the only actually influential way to meaningfully increase damage is to purchase damage upgrades themselves—unless you can somehow stump up an eleven-level lead: hint, not possible.

When people say "but at level 10, I deal +27% more base damage" they are forgetting they are dealing with enemies who possess anywhere between +28–44% more base hitpoints on average! It is an misrepresentation of the relative damage. You are getting no more realistically powerful as the game goes on outside of purchasing damage upgrades.

All it achieved was the nerfing of damage upgrades; that is something that did not require the introduction of an entirely new (and measurably convoluted) system.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:03 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Stuff

Morrowsaw wrote:
Everything scaling also made burst less relevant since in the late game you had 80% more health vs 60% more damage.



Umm I kinda pointed this out already. I was just bringing to attention how little XP differences matter in the grand scheme of things. I do agree that there could've been a simpler way to achieve the goal, but it's too late to bicker about it at this point if you ask me. The game is heavily balanced around the system now, and personally I enjoy the current iteration of the system.

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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:59 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
I tried to post this as a comment on Joost's blog post on matchmaking but it didn't get accepted. I wonder why. :roll:
https://joostdevblog.blogspot.de/2017/09/the-requirements-of-good-matchmaking.html

Here it goes:
"This whole post sounds like smoke and mirrors. Sounds like a bunch of bad excuses.

etc


The devblog is more for people who are interested in high-and-low level concepts about developing video games. Coming in there and dropping a slanted & negative manifesto about the XP system is kind of inappropriate for that channel dood.

If you want acknowledgement for your negative posts about the game, you're better off posting them on the forum here instead of the devblog. There's plenty of like-minded people on this forum who seem to go out of their way to bash the devs & their decision making every chance they get.

Morrowsaw sums it up perfectly -

Morrowsaw wrote:
The XP Patch is part of the game now. Deal with it. The game isn't what you want it to be anymore I'm sure people don't want support from people who only say negative things about them which is just a general reason why I think that Ronimo looks at this community less and less


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 Post subject: Re: My post that didn't get excepted on Joost's blog
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:14 am 
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ronimo never cared about the community in the first place
if they actually did, they would have actually held off on the xp system that like 99% of the community hated and still hates and would have added valentina


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