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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:44 am 
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kathy wrote:
i swear i posted a thread fully explaining my ideas for valentina somewhere (lord protector go find it pls)

Ask and ye shall receive: Behold, Valentina the Valkyrie!

Popcioslav wrote:
...it would be like Varian's parry...

If you are trying to convince people to add the Owl Twins, I would not do so by comparing them to one of the most hated, rage-inducing heroes in all of HotS. Varian exists to make people saltier than the Dead Sea during a heatwave.

You have also just described Ix's Refract, but without the ability to attack.

People, ask yourselves, "do I want more refract-based 'Naut abilities?"

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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:49 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Popcioslav wrote:
...it would be like Varian's parry...

If you are trying to convince people to add the Owl Twins, I would not do so by comparing them to one of the most hated, rage-inducing heroes in all of HotS. Varian exists to make people saltier than the Dead Sea during a heatwave.

You have also just described Ix's Refract, but without the ability to attack.

People, ask yourselves, "do I want more refract-based 'Naut abilities?"

I don't know which game are you playing, but it's definetly not Hots, but in Hots I could name 40 characters more rage-inducing than Varian.

All of them are either my mains or heroes I play daily.

That being said, after more thought I'm just baffled that all of the DAN's important finalists have reflect/parry/refract. Just WHY?

Yes, no one likes those, but if I'd have to pick my poison, I'd definetly take Owls/Varian over Valentina's shield and Ix's 2 skills full of invincibility, but that's just my opinion. In Owl's case, it would at least not be instant I imagine, but again, we would never know.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Alpha Z wrote:
I don't think Ix is all that bad mechanically, especially compared to some other characters in the game. Right now he's busted af, but with some more impactful nerfs to his brawling and a little more focus put into his ability as a support I honestly think he'd be fine.
Honestly I had a discussion with conor on the public Discord, and while I will not link the full chat (too lazy and IDK if he's okay with that) he did say a lot about how Ronimo changed his original (admitedly vague) concept that turned his in theory balanced idea into the unholy abomination we know today.
  • Well for one Swapping didn't give damage invulnerability. It was also bound to the Refract button, so you couldn't Refract while Tethered.
  • You originally couldn't move during Refract, and it also seems that you were unable to be hit with anything or bodyblock. See Puck in DOTA and his ability Phase Shift.
  • His AA was originally supposed to be "like LUX" but with a projectile that shot out. Conor said that his concept was for Ix to be "good at clearing waves at close range."
  • Also, he originally wasn't going to be able to fakn' fly. :fist:

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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:30 pm 
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GuyBrush wrote:
  • Well for one Swapping didn't give damage invulnerability. It was also bound to the Refract button, so you couldn't Refract while Tethered.
  • You originally couldn't move during Refract, and it also seems that you were unable to be hit with anything or bodyblock. See Puck in DOTA and his ability Phase Shift.
  • His AA was originally supposed to be "like LUX" but with a projectile that shot out. Conor said that his concept was for Ix to be "good at clearing waves at close range."
  • Also, he originally wasn't going to be able to fakn' fly. :fist:

I've played a lot of Ix because I find him mechanically fun, and honestly this sounds...much, much better.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:38 am 
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Well I was hoping Dizzy was going to have a similar mechanic to the Owl twins, and although I never really saw the appeal of Valentina, clearly a lot of other people did. I wouldn't object to them being included in the game in some capacity.

Although I think after Qi'Tara, Ronimo should take a break and focus on balancing and bug fixing, and prepping the game for the long term with more modding tools.

I can also validate the conversation me and GuyBrush had.

Alpha Z wrote:
GuyBrush wrote:
  • Well for one Swapping didn't give damage invulnerability. It was also bound to the Refract button, so you couldn't Refract while Tethered.
  • You originally couldn't move during Refract, and it also seems that you were unable to be hit with anything or bodyblock. See Puck in DOTA and his ability Phase Shift.
  • His AA was originally supposed to be "like LUX" but with a projectile that shot out. Conor said that his concept was for Ix to be "good at clearing waves at close range."
  • Also, he originally wasn't going to be able to fakn' fly. :fist:

I've played a lot of Ix because I find him mechanically fun, and honestly this sounds...much, much better.

Hey, Voltar has undergone multiple reworks. Maybe Ix can too?

It saddens me that people's biggest gripes with Ix are with elements of his design that I never actually envisioned. He doesn't need invulnerability during Displace. The ability doesn't even take a second to execute. Unless there's some behind-the-scenes reasons why this was implemented, I don't understand what the problem is with putting yourself at risk (which is by the way how Ix was designed to be played).

Pretty much everything people originally feared about Ix ended up being a non-issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:38 am 
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The only part of Ix that I find particularly problematic his how effective is brawling (AA) is.
I think its thematically appropriate that a crystal gem should have good access to invincibility frames, but when he's also a God of life-stealing AA, juking, and combo-enabling, thats what pushes him slightly over the edge. Just tone down his AA a little more, and possibly his max hover time, and he'll be fine imo.

I'd love to see a character that was essentially two characters in one, where one ability allows you to switch between them. There would need to be a toggle-able follow mode incorporated somehow, and one unique "skill" per body. Interesting idea however you parse it.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Isn't spear lady the same as Jimmy/Amy and the lux5000, Knocking charge, 360 AA, rockets that explode?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:35 pm 
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Reint wrote:
Isn't spear lady the same as Jimmy/Amy and the lux5000, Knocking charge, 360 AA, rockets that explode?

a deciseconds-long flash step dash isn't a sustained charge
a narrow cone-shaped aa that can pierce through walls and be aimed is different than jimmy's bashing
a single projectile that flies in an arc until hitting a wall and then exploding is different than a barrage of missiles with a range cap


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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Reint wrote:
Isn't spear lady the same as Jimmy/Amy and the lux5000, Knocking charge, 360 AA, rockets that explode?

Wouldn't be the same. :chew:
360 poke means that she can aim in any direction, similar to Coco.
Charge is a bit similar, but it also reflects and because of that would probably have nowhere near the same duration.
Spear throw is delayed explosion so it's more like Chucho minus the sticking to enemies.

The similarities were completely unintentional though because Ronimo didn't announce Overdrive until after the contest.

And I'm sad that Ronimo is so bent on making Ix dish out damage instead of being the support they were intended to be. The base kit with i-frames and swapping wouldn't bother me so much if the upgrades lent to a more support oriented final product, but it heavily pushes brawling instead.
Like why aren't there any support upgrades on Refract? An AoE heal or a larger hitbox so Ix can eat damage for his allies or something?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we and should we have spear lady or the owls?
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:40 pm 
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I would still be all for an Ix rework that makes him an actual support that actually supports as his main function, although I can see why pure supports would not work (as per the Voltar discussion we all had some time ago).

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