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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:28 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
[*] Two arms, two legs? Practically every alien encountered, apparently.

I think this pretty much sums up my point. It's the equivalent of saying a character having blonde hair is a trope, or you know, literally everything else you could say about them.

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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:55 pm 
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conorbebe wrote:
I think this pretty much sums up my point. It's the equivalent of saying a character having blonde hair is a trope, or you know, literally everything else you could say about them.

I would say blond(e) hair is more of a characteristic, but the fact that the hero stereotypically has blond(e) hair forms the trope—of course, there are people who consciously invert this to "counter" the trope, but that is in itself a trope, known as subversion.

To some degree, the whole point of a trope (or a motif) is to be repeated, building a specific mood or theme—to the degree that particularly common motifs devolve into cliché.

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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:21 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
of course, there are people who consciously invert this to "counter" the trope, but that is in itself a trope, known as subversion.

So it's a trope, even when it goes out of its way not to be. Gotcha.

I guess I see your point. A character like Coco is a trope because she's an alien, but she has two eyes, like a human. But Spike and Voltar are also tropes because they have three eyes, just to be different from a human. And Scoop? Another trope! Because just like Xenomorphs, he has no eyes! Meanwhile, Chucho and Blabl conform to the trope of aliens having an excessive number of eyes. Genji meanwhile has antenna, which are also something aliens are often depicted with, so again, another trope! Any number or form of eyes on a sci-fi character is a trope!

What it comes down to is, no matter what features or characteristics a character or work has, there will ALWAYS be a way for someone to turn it into a trope. And at that point, the entire endeavour becomes redundant, because you're not just noting recurring themes anymore, you're writing an encyclopedia.

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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:10 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
By the very definition of the word, if a theme exists it must be therefore a trope—it cannot both exist and be used and exist and not be used. Given that nothing is original, you will just be recycling something that came before. That is the nature of this sort of thing (and one of the principles of writing, fun fact).

There are countless examples of ambiguous gender on the TV Tropes page.

I would have to disagree. For something to be a trope, by its definition, it has to be both significant (i.e. irrelevant or minute stuff can not be a "trope") and recurring. The definition of a "motif" is similar in saying it must be recurring, dominant, repeated, a pattern.

The point is, for something to be a trope, it should be both actually relevant to the topic at hand, and be a highly recurring, dominant theme.

Stuff like "your sprite is a different size to the hitbox" isn't a theme, it's barely even a relevant detail. Stuff like ambiguous gender is not really a trope either, as it isn't a repeated pattern, it's just a characteristic of something. Note that for a "repeated pattern" to be one, it doesn't just have to be "this exists in many examples", it has to specifically occur in the same way multiple times over. Like you said, blonde hair on a courageous, likely muscular, person is a trope, because it is easily repeated in an oddly precise way, both in conventional use and in satire. The quality of your gender being ambiguous, with no other relevant details associated to this quality, is not one.

The act of "not obeying a trope" is not a trope, unless the exact method in which it is applied is following the same definition of a "trope".

The word doesn't exist to mean "literally anything ever that has happened more than once".


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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:25 pm 
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(EDIT: this answers Emo's points as well; they were faster on the draw than I was.)

conorbebe wrote:
So it's a trope, even when it goes out of its way not to be. Gotcha.

Precisely.

conorbebe wrote:
I guess I see your point. A character like Coco is a trope because she's an alien, but she has two eyes, like a human. But Spike and Voltar are also tropes because they have three eyes, just to be different from a human. And Scoop? Another trope! Because just like Xenomorphs, he has no eyes! Meanwhile, Chucho and Blabl conform to the trope of aliens having an excessive number of eyes. Genji meanwhile has antenna, which are also something aliens are often depicted with, so again, another trope! Any number or form of eyes on a sci-fi character is a trope!

I would say some of these are an oversimplification—perhaps the most ubiqutous (or, at the very least, recognisable) alien there is, the actual Xenomorph itself, does not have antenna.

In fact, I feel the motif with antenna is not so much that they are used, but that is is almost always one or two of them; the simple characteristic of "having an antennae/antenna" does not really qualify as a trope. Google "aliens with antenna" and you will see what I mean—when was the last time you saw an alien with seventeen of them*?

conorbebe wrote:
What it comes down to is, no matter what features or characteristics a character or work has, there will ALWAYS be a way for someone to turn it into a trope. And at that point, the entire endeavour becomes redundant, because you're not just noting recurring themes anymore, you're writing an encyclopedia.

This is true to an extent, but it is not a particularly helpful analysis: all works in English share the characteristic that they are written in some form of the language, but it is a waste of time to identify that as a trope/motif because it achieves nothing aside from stating the obvious.

Tropes here are generally used for specific examples of something where any number of choices would have been possible—why are aliens seen as green instead of yellow or red with spots? There will always be one "original" idea and countless deriratives thereof. Usually, this original idea is very old or even forgotten.

* Now, strickly speaking, "antenna" refers to two of them, which is in itself the basis of the motif—this does not prevent creative licence, however: "The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity."

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Last edited by The Lord Protector on Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:19 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
I would say some of these are an obersimplification—perhaps the most ubiqutous( or, at the ver least, recognisable) alien there is, the actual Xenomorph itself, does not have antenna.

I never said Xenomorphs have antenna. When I said "aliens", I meant sci-fi aliens in general. My point was that seemingly every kind or number of sensory organ could be considered a trope according to TVTropes.org, or you apparently. So at that point, what's the point in keeping a list?

The Lord Protector wrote:
conorbebe wrote:
What it comes down to is, no matter what features or characteristics a character or work has, there will ALWAYS be a way for someone to turn it into a trope. And at that point, the entire endeavour becomes redundant, because you're not just noting recurring themes anymore, you're writing an encyclopedia.

This is true to an extent, but it is not a particularly helpful analysis: all works in English share the characteristic that they are written in some form of the language, but it is a waste of time to identify that as a trope/motif because it achieves nothing aside from stating the obvious.

Tropes here are generally used for specific examples of something where any number of choices would have been possible—why are aliens seen as green instead of yellow or red with spots? There will always be one "original" idea and countless deriratives thereof. Usually, this original idea is very old or even forgotten.

Again, what you describe is pretty much anything and everything. These are not tropes, these are examples of reality. Art imitates life; life imitates art.

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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Art imitates life; life imitates art.

Who would have thought Murloc's help request topic on a site about documenting random patterns, would suddenly be so philosophical.


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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm 
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TV Tropes has an extensive list of things too common to be considered tropes and a page explaining things too rare to be considered tropes. They're the pages "People Sit On Chairs" and "Chairs Sit On People". They also have extensive pages describing the differences between a trope and a cliche. Given the nature of writing, eventually all possible tropes will become People Sit On Chairs, including all current Chairs Sit On People.

I'd also recommend looking up their page on The Tropeless Work, which explains in great detail why everything falls into categories. If you do somehow create something that has literally never been seen before, every new element will be used by other works in the future and become tropes.

Also, keep in mind that TV Tropes lists tropes for Real Life as well. Reality can be divided into many of the same categories as fiction, because reality and fiction are so closely knit.

Also, WHY DID I COME BACK HERE YOU PEOPLE ARE TOXIC SLUDGE :fist:

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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:35 pm 
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MurlocAggroB wrote:
YOU PEOPLE ARE TOXIC SLUDGE :fist:

Is there really any need for this Murloc? You've so far been rather hostile to the people responding, with no real reason.


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 Post subject: Re: TV Tropes
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:41 pm 
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