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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Aaron12906m wrote:
To be 100% honest I do feel that I can put aside damage upgrades for a few minutes to take some other gimmicky/utility upgrades first because of the xp system. The first few minutes starts with farming so I see myself picking up pierce on froggy and rae or kb with coco to try to score some early plays. Back then for sure it was make sure you're ready to kill as soon as the match starts or else you fall behind.

Is this not because damage upgrades were so powerful relative to what we have how—not picking them as your enemies did would have put you well behind their damage output.

That, to me, sounds more like damage upgrades being nerfed than the XP System having an effect—my whole point.

Aaron12906m wrote:
Do did damage upgrades get nerfed or did the xp system succeed in not making them a necessity right away? I personally don't know the answer BUT, if the introduction of the xp system CAUSED damage upgrades to be nerfed, then why doesn't the credit go to the xp system anyway? Like an assist ya know?

Damage upgrades were nerfed and the XP System was introduced to compensate for the lost damage by increasing it based on the level difference. However, we then added such strong rubberband mechanic (and subsequently weakened the actual damage increase percentages so much) that you would need to be an absurd numnber of levels ahead of your enemies to really feel the effect. In essence, the XP System has been neutered to the point of irrelevancy, I feel. +6% damage is not going to decice the outcome of a match.

As has been said, you get weaker throughout a match if you do not buy damage upgrades, assuming both teams are near each other's levels (i.e. 14|12 instead of 17|11). That does not strike me as making them less mandatory so much as we just made picking them up less desirable, but still necessary.

Aaron12906m wrote:
To emphasize though, I'm not against removing the xp system. I just see both sides equally. It would be great to get a weekly brawl of some classic Nauts.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Yeah I never said damage is no longer a necessity. Actually I doubt you can find a quote where ronimo themselves say "damage upgrades are no longer necessary" and by that they mean for the entire game. You still need them at some point. If ronimo did actually say that, then they are more lost than I ever imagined...

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Aaron12906m wrote:
Yeah I never said damage is no longer a necessity. Actually I doubt you can find a quote where ronimo themselves say "damage upgrades are no longer necessary" and by that they mean for the entire game. You still need them at some point. If ronimo did actually say that, then they are more lost than I ever imagined...

Jasper disagrees to a degree.

Note particularly the seventh (and the ending of the sixth) paragraph:

"Secondly, damage items will be less dominant, improving both build variety and build order variety. Damage items will be weaker compared to what they are now, especially during the early game. This makes other items more interesting, comparatively. Damage items will always be viable and strong, but not necessarily the first or even essential items."
Not wishing to cherrypick quotations, but that bold bit right there...

For me, they were trying to make them less mandatory by shifting power away from them. I agree that damage upgrades are less powerful, but that has nothing to do with the XP System: they are less powerful simply because their strengths were reduced. Instead of +45%, we have +24% now. This did not require the introduction of a whole new system to do, surely?

Now, I suppose you could argue (righly so) that damage increases more gradually now throughout the match, as opposed to all at once in spikes as people purchase the upgrades...

...except that makes no sense, for damage scales slower than health (33.3% slower, too). So, really, the only damage the XP System is "granting" players comes about from having a large lead over their enemy in levels—again, this makes such strong rubberbanding mechanics seem silly. Why restrict the damage to a situation that is made actively harder/realistically unreachable?

I simply cannot add it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:33 am 
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Fact is, XP-System destroyed too many fun aspects of the game that were all right there before the XP-System. It's like if a doctor did a heart operation on a human, but cut out half the heart in the process. The patient then dies from the injury after a week, although he could have lived another year without the operation.

How can someone even judge this, if they have never played the game right before the XP-System?

The real insanity of the situation is that right after the XP-System came out (without anyone in the community being in the loop about it), there was a mass exodus of very old players, all kinds of veterans and streamers, from the game. Slowly but surely, the numbers of overall players also started to drop, instead of the slow but steady increase before, even though there were problems. It wasn't all growth but it was a good status quo, at least.

So what did the devs do? Without even second guessing their beloved XP-System, they kept the direction they were going, but the numbers didn't stop dropping. As a last ditch effort, they thought they could win all those players back by going free2play. We all now know how that backfired. The numbers are almost at their lowest, as they were BEFORE free2play. Believe me, all free2play was, was a desperate move from Ronimo. And people can smell desperation a mile away.

They went free2play instead of addressing the root cause, instead of listening to the droves of players, and especially the big streamers, who were leaving after the XP-System came out....

Because they never really valued them. They thought people like HarryButchers, edwiener and toilethumor could just be replaced anytime. I always thought they were the only real voices in this community and the only hope to make it bigger any time soon. Ronimo just thought they were replaceable... Who at Ronimo actually gave a s*** when all these people left the game after hour long rants about the XP-System? Did Ronimo ever even listen to them? Did Ronimo ever even know they existed?! :think:

It's sad, but I'm also not shocked they are going down the drain because nobody at Ronimo ever seemed to care about all those people that left at that time. Apparently, all that s***storm wasn't enough for Ronimo to rethink their massive changes introduced by the XP-System. Changes that nobody asked for explicitly, nobody knew about, nobody from the community could have tested out, nobody wanted... and the real paradox, they don't even make any damn sense!

It only calmed down after more and more frustrated players left. And I think Ronimo just thought they would replace them, too, as long as they wouldn't have to reverse the XP-System.

PS: Can somebody from Ronimo actually have the guts to come here and address some of these points about the XP-System? You can defend it, if you actually believe in it. It's not like there is much posting going on around the forums lately, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:46 am 
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Aaron12906m wrote:
Lol the 360 version? Where you can only aim in 8 directions and you can't aim left and walk right because button binding does not exist? Where lonestar has mines with almost 1 minute self detonation? Yeah no... If you want to compare it to the ps4/Xbox one, it still wouldn't work. Console versions are a joke at this point we should just pretend they don't exist. I know ronimo acts this way.

People who want to revert xp just miss the good old days where you had a big number next to your user name that made you the scariest person in the lobby. Nothing like being a 32 when your teammates were around 17. Good times...

I promise you manual strafing was an art in itself. Thats why me and alot of other players played it for so long after the patches ended and we got bored of shotty g/yuri godbubble wrecking everything.

The old console version has something that the current version doesn't have that I miss so much. Your strafing didn't have an animation lock that cut off all acceleration so it made the game more paced. I have videos showing this on my YouTube but the only downside was the movement penalty bug that happened randomly and glitched you in place when hit with the slow Cc. Like even the zoom of the screen made the artwork more appreciated and the old groggy g,leon,yuri,derpl and coco sprites were better looking and smoother looking.

Ask unoner or TgTgtgtgt, Server or any old console player how hype our matches use to be before the game started removing depth and broken upgrades. Like if I made a modded version of the old console with 360 aiming, movement bug fixed, some key balance changes and I guess new nauts added somehow then it would bring everyone back. The old shop and menu screen are also epic in its own right and should be optional instead of completely removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:02 am 
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Fam how did you even like it? I know exactly what you mean though. Kiting was a pure art skill with lonestar. Lol maybe unoner misses the old days so he never touches Nauts anymore.

But on a not tangent note. Wouldn't going to a non-xp system seem ridiculous to new players? Put yourself in the shoes of a new post f2p player. He/she/zir(2017 joke [got em]) doesn't know what Nauts used to be like. They see ronimo drop the xp system. They see it as not a throwback move, but a "were removing features from this game and replacing them with nothing" move. Obviously they don't understand it is for the best. They are just going to think "why? This company is dumb. I bet Joost van dongen doesn't actually exist (I'm drunk sorry)" they won't want to play this game that already struggles with new player retention. And uh... Yeah I'm drunk. Can't finish this. Feel free to counter my not even well structured argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:25 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
They went free2play instead of addressing the root cause, instead of listening to the droves of players, and especially the big streamers, who were leaving after the XP-System came out....

Because they never really valued them. They thought people like HarryButchers, edwiener and toilethumor could just be replaced anytime. I always thought they were the only real voices in this community and the only hope to make it bigger any time soon. Ronimo just thought they were replaceable... Who at Ronimo actually gave a s*** when all these people left the game after hour long rants about the XP-System? Did Ronimo ever even listen to them? Did Ronimo ever even know they existed?! :think:


Honestly, I have followed this thread long enough. As far as everything goes, it is subjective. There is no concrete evidence besides the EXP system reducing the impact (not importance) of damage upgrades allowing for more variety earlier and in some rare cases, overall. EXP has made very little in terms of team fights and differences, because at most it is a three level advantage/disadvantage (if you run consistently into 4+ level differences, let me know). There is hardly any impact there for Awesomenauts VS Awesomenauts (9% damage and 12% health). What the EXP system scaling really does is allows for more damage to structures and droids allowing late-game pushes to be more effective.

Also in regards to streamers, people lose interest with the game on their own right and at difference paces. No one was expected to stick around with Awesomenauts forever. It is rare that a game lasts so long.

Also, if you hold those three as examples, you're going to have to change your thoughts and ideas. Edweiner and Toilethumor were chill, but came off as brash to anyone who didn't know their antics. Harrybutchers on the other hand is arguably the worst player to the Awesomenauts community. I can say that with great confidence given his racist, sexist, and insulting attitude. There is a good example from way back of his actions being smacked down from Overwatch when Star hosted him very temporarily. The guy has no respect for anyone but himself and the fact he is gone is healthier for the community. We, as a community, have a skin and we can tolerate some back and forth in good fun (which is why we have some current streams like Mr.Pillow, Eddster, Nadapop, Pyrocheese, Slowwolf, and more).

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:30 am 
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While I cannot comment about the XP system, the removal of in-match joining was a godsend addition. Ragequitting actually dropped down by 95%.

Perhaps due to that, some players got annoyed about being "forced" to play losing matches, and stopped playing the game altogether. But thats just a good riddance, ragequitters were a cancerous group that was better be gone altogether.

I wouldnt mind if Brawl matches were mid-game joinable though. In fact I wish they were instant joinable, and if you have 4+mins of real game queue, you could join a Brawl during that, and automaticly be sent to your main match when it starts.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Aaron12906m wrote:
Fam how did you even like it? I know exactly what you mean though. Kiting was a pure art skill with lonestar. Lol maybe unoner misses the old days so he never touches Nauts anymore.
.

Didn't mean to sidetrack so much forgive me lol. I am personally attracted to anything with a high skill ceiling since I'm a 90's baby and came from the era of fast paced 2d games where execution and fast reads were key to skill ( This blatantly shows in my playstyle with my high risk no fear style of play. Yet it was very quick calculating plays ). Like playing melee, guilty gear, street fighter and other hardcore games.

Once you mastered manual strafing, it gave you an entirely new appreciation of the game because the skill ceiling increased tenfold thus my attraction. I can even show you an array of gamebreaking bugs like Leon, froggy entering the enemy base by jumping through the corner of ribbits field, telejumping and shooting while researching or delayed telejumps :LeonWink: and in general playing a lategame coco who is on par with froggy or slightly better. Like if you play the console version with me I can show you the appeal that drew us in. I haven't lost my touch in that regard.

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IsoKoala wrote:
While I cannot comment about the XP system, the removal of in-match joining was a godsend addition. Ragequitting actually dropped down by 95%.

Perhaps due to that, some players got annoyed about being "forced" to play losing matches, and stopped playing the game altogether. But thats just a good riddance, ragequitters were a cancerous group that was better be gone altogether.

I wouldnt mind if Brawl matches were mid-game joinable though. In fact I wish they were instant joinable, and if you have 4+mins of real game queue, you could join a Brawl during that, and automaticly be sent to your main match when it starts.


I am personally still a fan of latejoins. The only problem with latejoins was how it calculated the average solar of the enemy team thus normally putting you ahead of 2/3 players on the enemy team which was lame because of counterpicking. On the console version imagine when people would start losing and rejoin as the shotty g ultimate edition. Luckily if you could hit lategame then you could handle him with slow bull, Leon, coco. Shorty g was just abusive in scaling and power with piggy bank. Latejoins was also a more casual element that allowed people like me to just hop in and have quick matches.

*Team level xp doesn't make sense and should be removed for individual leveling with less overall levels. Damage upgrades should be made a mandatory purchase separate from the row to literally not interfere with the viability of upgrades and scaling. Though I suggested this approach 3 years ago and gave up on this game becoming better until they release awesomenauts settings manager. I remember telling idea to several people like canole, bad Joe etc. I hope everyone can see why I said the future of awesomenauts rely on this. No offense to the devs or art team.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb Dumb Dumb
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:35 pm 
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frankie3 wrote:
IsoKoala wrote:
While I cannot comment about the XP system, the removal of in-match joining was a godsend addition. Ragequitting actually dropped down by 95%.

Perhaps due to that, some players got annoyed about being "forced" to play losing matches, and stopped playing the game altogether. But thats just a good riddance, ragequitters were a cancerous group that was better be gone altogether.

I wouldnt mind if Brawl matches were mid-game joinable though. In fact I wish they were instant joinable, and if you have 4+mins of real game queue, you could join a Brawl during that, and automaticly be sent to your main match when it starts.


I am personally still a fan of latejoins. The only problem with latejoins was how it calculated the average solar of the enemy team thus normally putting you ahead of 2/3 players on the enemy team which was lame because of counterpicking.

No, it was not the only problem. This problem was quite small actually.

The bigger problem was ragequitting. Before, it couldn't be punished since there was no way to know if a disconnection was because of a ragequit or because of internet. Now there is a distinction, and as a result there has been a dramatic decrease in ragequitting.

I remember the old days where there was in average 1 or 2 ragequit per match. I remember a specific match where we saw 3 full team rotations before a L1 premade came and stomped us. No thanks, I don't want to live that again. The problem you cited is infinitely small compared to the problem of ragequitting.

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