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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:27 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
The problem with this reasoning is that we would actually need to have new players so that making it easier for them to pick up was worth the effort. As far as I am aware, they all scampered quite some time ago—rightfully so, as well.

There is always hope for Awesomenauts to gain a new following.

But it actually needs to be accessible again...

It especially has to align with a clear vision (I've explained what that vision should be), not multiple contradicting ones. There are no successful businesses in this world that don't have a higher vision for themselves that is also their highest goal. That's why you never accept mediocrity!

And the lesson for Ronimo should definitely be that THIS STUFF MATTERS!

Especially, especially(!) when it comes to the actual design of your game! That is what people are subjected to the most and will judge every second of every match. It's not the fancy Menus, it's not the Skins, it's not stuff like Map Editors or Replays... you get the idea. I would argue that PUBG is a great example of how good game design can make a game successful, despite not having any of those things, minus some!

The exact opposite happens when a game has everything else going for it except, of course, it's a badly designed mess. Games like that can't fail fast enough. Everybody knows those games, whether AAA or indie.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 am 
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Hero wrote:
I really like the XP system when it first came out and I like it now.
People are just getting old and prefer the old way of doing things this is why they cling on to the pre xp days.


Well frankly the statistics disagree with you, After December 2015, the game has halved it's player base in the few months after and never really recovered. The game was hovering at around 600-700 players average, until the XP patch dropped and after people had a taste of it for a few months and when Overdrive launched the average player count dropped to 300-400 and stayed there pretty much until now, except on new patch releases where some people come back to check if anything changed.

So I'd say the XP patch killed interest of a lot of people including mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:30 pm 
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FTY wrote:
Well frankly the statistics disagree with you, After December 2015, the game has halved it's player base in the few months after and never really recovered. The game was hovering at around 600-700 players average, until the XP patch dropped and after people had a taste of it for a few months and when Overdrive launched the average player count dropped to 300-400 and stayed there pretty much until now, except on new patch releases where some people come back to check if anything changed.

So I'd say the XP patch killed interest of a lot of people including mine.


Hey another fallacy, a "post hoc fallacy".

You are assuming that the overall slow decline in players is due to the XP-system.
This is simply not the case when you look at the statistics. (I assume you were referring to these steam charts?)
The XP-system happened december 2nd of 2015, there barely is a greater decline noticeable then beforehand.
I'm sorry to say that the game has always had a slow decline in players and a big increase shortly after a F2P weekend, you simply cannot correlate this to the XP-system in any way.

DeezNauts wrote:
I really think most people agree with me. We just shouldn't fight about the different reasons why we think the XP-System was a bad idea, we should fight against mediocrity in general!

This is also a fallacy, I believe it's a "Ad hominem" but I should say that I'm not completely sure ,since English isn't my native language and I don't have a direct translation.
In Dutch it would be called a "toying with the audience" fallacy. An example of this would be "Every person that has a little common sense should know that I'm correct."
When one does this he isn't giving any argumentation, which makes it impossible to have a discussion.

Basically try to give a proper reasoning why you think something is the case, instead of saying people should just agree with what you are saying.
Especially since persuading Ronimo on this matter is a real hardship, given how they neglected previous topics on the same matter.

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Sam! wrote:
imo.


Your opinion is one of the reasons Sentry is in it's current state


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Jas123c wrote:
You are assuming that the overall slow decline in players is due to the XP-system.
This is simply not the case when you look at the statistics. (I assume you were referring to these steam charts?)
The XP-system happened december 2nd of 2015, there barely is a greater decline noticeable then beforehand.
I'm sorry to say that the game has always had a slow decline in players and a big increase shortly after a F2P weekend, you simply cannot correlate this to the XP-system in any way.


The large amount of noise from spiky events like patch releases and free-to-play weekends make the concurrent player data difficult to interpret. For the XP system, having a F2P event so close to its release does muddy things up. It's hard to extract a single factor when there are many variables that affect the graph.

I can say this though, anecdotal as it may be, that I have over 150 steam friends who have Awesoments. I tend to see four at most playing the game during peak hours. A great number of my steam friends quit playing because of the XP system, and will say as much. A large number of prominent players quit because of the XP system, and did say as much. This selection is biased towards higher level, highly visible players though, so it may or may not be representative of the general population.

Jas123c wrote:
This is also a fallacy, I believe it's a "Ad hominem" but I should say that I'm not completely sure ,since English isn't my native language and I don't have a direct translation.


Sounds like you're looking for ad populum. Ad hominem is an "argument against the person" that would go something along the lines of "You're wrong because you are dutch, and everyone knows the dutch cannot be trusted."


Last edited by hurleybird on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 pm 
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If we're aiming for latin descriptions, wouldn't "ambitiose sed ineptum" be a better fit for the xp system?


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:45 pm 
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hurleybird wrote:
The large amount of noise from spiky events like patch releases and free-to-play weekends. Make the concurrent player data difficult to interpret. For the XP system, having a F2P event so close to its release does muddy things up. It's hard to extract a single factor when there are many variables that affect the graph.

I can say this though, anecdotal as it may be, that I have over 150 steam friends how have Awesoments. I tend to see four at most playing the game during peak hours. A great number of my steam friends quit playing because of the XP system, and will say as much. A large number of prominent players quit because of the XP system, and did say as much. This selection is biased towards higher level, highly visible players though, so it may or may not be representative of the general population.


Exactly my point, you cannot just say that the steady decline in players is due to the XP-system.
I have also had a lot of friends who stopped playing, even I played less with the original XP-system update. However looking back on this, this (for me) was mostly due to all the balance changes happening at the same time. It's also normal that players lose interest after playing a game for 5 years.
Currently I enjoy most of the things the XP-system adds but there is always room for improvement.

I also agree with old players being more valuable than new players from a community point of view, however new players are the main source of income for Ronimo. :shrug:
hurleybird wrote:
Jas123c wrote:
This is also a fallacy, I believe it's a "Ad hominem" but I should say that I'm not completely sure ,since English isn't my native language and I don't have a direct translation.


Sounds like you're looking for ad populum. Ad hominem is an "argument against the person" that would go something along the lines of "You're wrong because you are dutch, and everyone knows the dutch cannot be trusted."


Better watch out for us Dutchmen, anyway thanks for letting me know. :thumb:

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Lunk The Hero wrote:
Sam! wrote:
imo.


Your opinion is one of the reasons Sentry is in it's current state


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:27 am 
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You know, I could probably find a lot of irony in someone who constantly lectures people about logical fallacies, but can't recognize an Ad hominem after even himself linking to a Wikipedia article of it. Ad hominem is literally the most known of them all. But no, I wouldn't want to accuse anyone of being a hipster. :lolstar:

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:21 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
You know, I could probably find a lot of irony in someone who constantly lectures people about logical fallacies, but can't recognize an Ad hominem after even himself linking to a Wikipedia article of it. Ad hominem is literally the most known of them all. But no, I wouldn't want to accuse anyone of being a hipster. :lolstar:


I can't even begin to describe the irony of this message.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:28 am 
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eddster27 wrote:
I can't even begin to describe the irony of this message.

Irony.

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Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc


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