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 Post subject: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:37 pm 
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I see people asking for new and improved features for the game... Stop!

How about, you know, make the game more simple again and concentrate on the core gameplay experience instead... :roll:

But no, let's start hanging on 100000000000 bells and whistles on a game that most people don't find that fun anymore.

Nauts is a simple game. It's 2D graphics, it's oldschool sidescroller jump n' run mechanics, it's cheesy 90's Saturday morning cartoon characters, etc...

A game with graphics and simplicity like that absolutely needs to concentrate 100% on the gameplay. If it doesn't have top notch gameplay, what else does it have??? It dies...

The only thing Nauts had going for it once, was the core gameplay and the simplicity of it that anyone could get right into and understand intuitively (if they ever played games like Super Smash Bros or even Super Mario/Sonic games). Almost any gamer used to be able to just pick it up instantly and have a lot of fun while not being boggled down with things that don't fit and don't make sense (Team XP, Exp-Points, % vs. flat damage upgrades, Starstorm...).

The simple visuals of this game is also what attracts people who want simple gameplay and a game that is easy to play and get into, and still can be competitive of course.

If you make a game like this too complicated, it dies because the core demographic were people who just wanted to play a simple game that makes sense, easy to get into etc. Remember when Nauts didn't NEED a lengthy tutorial and people only started complaining after they changed the core game so much that now it was necessary and even mandatory.

By making the game so complicated, they changed the gameplay, the simplicity totally went out the window and people who used to like it now don't. Go figure... They liked it precisely because the game was simple and didn't need a lengthy tutorial... In fact, it didn't need any tutorial at all for most people, but now a much longer tutorial is mandatory before you can even get into a match! This is how you DON'T improve a game where core gameplay is everything.

My suggestion would be to revert back to Patch 2.12 in terms of core gameplay and rethink entirely how to go forward from that state.

tl;dr: By making a simple game that worked more complicated, they risked breaking that whole experience, and that is exactly what happened with this game.

EDIT:
Now that this post got 2000 views, I should specify that I'm talking about how the game became significantly harder to get into and learn after the XP-System. I'm very much aware that there were internal tactics for snowballing before. It's just that turning it into yet another system to learn, instead of just something you could (only if you wanted to) figure out by simply playing the game, was a horrible idea. The much steeper learning curve it created with all the scaling and %-items that became way harder to compare, made the game so much less accessible to the average player. The worst part was that there was no good reason to have it compared to the simple solar system. Competitive players who needed to worry about snowballing could have easily known where to look and already intuitively knew about it. But especially new players now need to be bogged down by a whole other system to learn and a longer mandatory tutorial just to play the game, that used to be just as easily learned through playing, but also only if you ever needed to worry about it. New players just don't.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Last edited by DeezNauts on Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:27 pm 
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I've never been the biggest fan of the xp system, in fact 100% hated it for multiple months after it's implementation (and still want it to be changed to player xp instead of team xp...) but you just can't. I don't think you realize how much * coding has to be done to go back to 2.12. This involves having to redo every character since Ksenia's release so they have manageable numbers as well as redoing the entirety of the rest of the cast. On paper you can plead for it but it'd take literal months for them to recode the entire games cast.

What happens after they do this? You have 30 characters running around on flat numbers, many of which do require the scaling given by the xp system to function so they don't have huge damage spikes. There's also the fact that going back to pre-xp means rejiggering the item purchase prices and the amount of solar you receive at the start of the game so that people don't just spike into instagib damage.

Don't get me wrong, I had a ton of fun when playing old versions of the game but how that plays compared to this one, two entirely different games with different mechanics. This isn't the case of just 'omg xp system changed the game sooo much blah blah' it's how the game has moved forward in terms of character mechanics, for instance: Rocket could not fit into 2.12's gameplay, why? It's because of his charged aa's damage and how it gets to it's good damage levels through aa purchases and xp. Without xp, people can rush it and get free 350/400 structure damage aa's right from the get go. Hell even Ksenia barely fit into pre-xp with her scissors dealing %/max hp damage, just didn't look right compared to 550 dashes, 1000 explodes and 750 snipes.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:57 pm 
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@Slevens
I totally understood before I made this post that it would take months or even years to simplify the game and rework characters and balance again. But wouldn't it be a change in the right direction? I think it's that necessary for the game to live. A complete change of direction and VISION for this game is mandatory at this point, otherwise I feel like it's downfall is unavoidable.

And the devs need to be vocal about this and make a public timeline for all the changes. People need to know where the game is heading because unfortunately it's all downhill right now.

Ronimo never understood the importance of vision in a business. If they had a real vision they would bend over backwards to reach it. I feel like they had a good vision when they made this game, but then they just abandoned it big time a few years ago. The best example of this was when Heroes of the Storm came out and Ronimo just blindly copied their team level XP-System, which clearly went against the simple, easy to get into gameplay Nauts had. They traded the idea of some new features for their vision, which is why the game is in it's current state right now. If they want to save the game, they need to get back on track, and yes, that would mean drastic changes at this point.

(Apple haters can look away now)
This is why I like Apple and why Steve Jobs was so successful. He never compromised his vision for anything. Most other companies added all kinds of bells and whistles to their products because "others were doing it", but Apple never strayed off course of their own simple and elegant design, and ended up as the richest company on the planet. And when Apple comes up with new ideas, it's usually something they came up with themselves, not something they just copied from someone else because it's easy. Stealing an idea from someone else is always easy, but it almost never fits what YOU really needed.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Last edited by DeezNauts on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:07 pm 
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how much of the game would fundamentally change if everyone was stuck at lv1 forever
if a skill scales too quickly, you just give the damage upgrade another stage or make it more expensive

xp was never at all necessary for anything


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Cool another wall of text thread spewing the same baseless * over and over again. This argument has been had multiple times already, your threads add literally nothing new to the conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:35 pm 
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kathy wrote:
xp was never at all necessary for anything

Yes, the game worked fine without it. And it was definitely more fun. My only dream for this game is to be able to have that experience again. The only thing was that games were longer back then, but I would gladly play a longer match that's way more fun, for 2-3 short but disappointing ones. My absolute best memories of this game come from those 40-50 minute matches that went back and forth the whole time. It never felt snowbally as every match feels right now, unless there was a genuinely good player on one of the teams, but that SHOULD be a thing.

They only added the XP-System because Heroes of the Storm came out at that time and Ronimo of course was expecting it to be successful, so they just copy-pasted their system into Nauts... Funny thing was that nobody asked for it and nobody knew about it until it was all done and ready for launch. Does that sound like something that was "necessary"?

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


Last edited by DeezNauts on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:36 pm 
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eddster27 wrote:
Cool another wall of text thread spewing the same baseless * over and over again. This argument has been had multiple times already, your threads add literally nothing new to the conversation.

Thanks. Go away then, nobody is forcing you to read it. I'd like to discuss the topic without insults, if that would be possible.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:25 pm 
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Does Kathy not have a very valid point?

Surely locking the XP System at level 1 for the whole match, hiding the UI at the top, and rebalancing some of the damage upgrades would simulate the same thing? It would not be neat behind-the-scenes, and I can already see the mess giving Fish a grand-mal seizure, but... would that not be worthy of a test at least? A brawl (if we ever get out of recycling the same five)?

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:24 am 
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If XP system was locked at level 1 you lose like 10% HP lategame and some structure dmg. That's the grand impact of the leveling system on balance. Turning it off wouldn't change nearly as much as people think, games would just be a bit be closer & longer, and you'd be a bit squishier lategame.

I hate the xp system because it's so useless for balancing. It could have been so much more, but instead it's just a snowballing system that has to have insane rubberbanding on to minimize the impact of it because when XP was impactful the game wasn't fun. It's like ever since it first hit beta, we knew Ronimo * it up. It didn't solve build varity or help balance the game. It's just a controlled snowballing system, and a bad one at that.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Tom wrote:
If XP system was locked at level 1 you lose like 10% HP lategame and some structure dmg. That's the grand impact of the leveling system on balance. Turning it off wouldn't change nearly as much as people think, games would just be a bit be closer & longer, and you'd be a bit squishier lategame.

I hate the xp system because it's so useless for balancing. It could have been so much more, but instead it's just a snowballing system that has to have insane rubberbanding on to minimize the impact of it because when XP was impactful the game wasn't fun. It's like ever since it first hit beta, we knew Ronimo * it up. It didn't solve build varity or help balance the game. It's just a controlled snowballing system, and a bad one at that.

Exactly, it's just snowballing at its best (worst). It's not talked about nearly enough because people just... except it, I guess?

I can maybe understand a snowball system (although I still don't like it) for games where you don't have to aim that much and movement is boring and automatic like in Dota2 or LoL, but not in an opposite game like Nauts. It's not making my gameplay experience better because Nauts itself was never boring to begin with. Now there's just an additional snowball system where it was never needed.

I want to win because I'm better at platforming or I have a better aim, not because I snowballed the enemy the whole game until they lost. Of course, if aiming and movement isn't that exciting, maybe you need a snowball system, if you like that kind of gameplay... :think: But Nauts just doesn't attract people who are into that kind of gameplay. No other platformers or fighting games have snowball systems.

Vice versa, losing because the enemy snowballed you in Nauts is the worst feeling ever. Nauts is already fun and takes a lot of skill for platforming and aiming, so nobody needed the whole snowballing on top of that. It was never the right idea to help anything. And as Tom says, the
strong rubberbanding system is there just to counteract the snowball system. It makes just about as much sense as daylight saving time... :roll:

Implementing a hard snowball system into your game just to make matches shorter never made any sense to me. You don't ruin your game to make matches shorter!

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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