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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Just for the record, I do not think any of this will (or, in some cases, should) come into effect, but if we were to undo the XP System (hint hint Ronimo, if you are doing Awesomenauts 2), then upgrades as a thing will need to be drastically more... creative.

As much as I do not like taking things from other games—as some of you might have guessed—HotS does do its talents very well in that regard. They are all more or less creative and all fulfill drastically different roles. Now, compare this to every new Awesomenaut's inevitable +X% damage and +X% attack speed.

Where is the creativity? Where is the chaos that the supposed cartoon inspiration is drawing from? I want to see A.C.M.E. death rays or nuclear explosions as upgrades, not a slightly brighter fairy light taped to the end of a stick.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:49 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
just find the line of code that increments team level when you level up and comment it out. then hide the overlay. that could probably be done before lunch :D

I mean if there's only one team level, showing it as a % is really just cosmetic.

lol, you're right...

Now I want to know how much time it would really take to make this ready for a custom setting to try out. Then all we'd need in custom games is a way to make individual upgrades stronger or weaker and cost more or less, and then a way to export those setting to compare with others.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:51 am 
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You can make arguments for and against the XP system on its own merits, but removing it at this stage would be a mistake.

This is coming from a guy who railed against the XP system when it was in beta, and again when it was initially introduced on live, and who still would personally prefer not to have the XP system despite the tangible improvements to it since those early days.

Don't get me wrong. The XP system was misguided, poorly implemented, and led to a mass exodus on top of that. Around half of my friends quit playing the game when it went live. It was obviously an unmitigated failure, and hopefully it can serve as an object lesson in what not to do for everyone involved.

Given all that, it would still be a mistake to remove it today. Not because of the sunk costs. Sunk cost fallacy is just that, and is probably a good part of the reason we got stuck with the XP system in the first place. Development effort is definitely a factor, but (aside from the necessary re-balance) probably not a substantially large one.

The reason is the same one that made the XP system such a mistake in the first place. Because with few exceptions established communities don't like sea changes of established gameplay features, and the more fundamental the feature the larger the backlash tends to be. This is true even for objective steps forward, no less lateral-at-best moves like the XP system, and only the most obviously beneficial changes are largely immune. Remove the XP system and you'll get a few regulars to come back, at least for a little while, but this will come at the expense of players who started playing post-XP update. And it's altogether much easier to lose a player than to regain one who quit playing long ago. The most likely scenario for removing the XP system is yet more player attrition at a time when the game simply can't afford any.

And yes, I see the irony in the above given that I created a map with the intention that it might be used as the blueprint to replace StarStorm. The second part of this is that, when a change is an improvement, even though the initial reaction may be biased towards negativity, given enough time the new thing becomes familiar and the improvement tends to become readily accepted.

I remember the initial backlash when FPS games first started to transition to regenerating health, or adopting cover mechanics. These aren't necessarily obvious improvements, and are arguably even gameplay regressions. That said, today the sheer force of familiarity has caused them to be accepted without a second thought by players.

The difference between something like changing an established but poorly designed map and changing a major gameplay system lies in magnitude. Assuming both changes are overall moderate improvements, changing a major gameplay system is all encompassing and affects everything. Players are effectively playing a different game, and are thus much more likely to quit before they become acclimated to the change and realise it's actually an improvement. Changing a map on the other hand is completely local. If the map is widely disliked, a change can be seen immediately as an improvement by that portion of the player base. For those who don't dislike the current iteration, it's a small enough change that it is likely to be tolerated until familiarity re-exerts itself. Unless, say, we're dealing with a game where there's only one widely played on map.

Major reworks of characters is a scenario unique from the two above, and one I suggest avoiding if possible. For most of the population, a character rework isn't going to change much, but for anyone who mains that character, it can be a devastating turnoff akin to something like the XP system change. And again, even if the new version is an overall improvement, you're probably going to lose people before enough time has passed for them to accept the new iteration.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:08 am 
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hurleybird wrote:
The difference between something like changing an established but poorly designed map and changing a major gameplay system lies in magnitude. Assuming both changes are overall moderate improvements, changing a major gameplay system is all encompassing and affects everything. Players are effectively playing a different game, and are thus much more likely to quit before they become acclimated to the change and realise it's actually an improvement. Changing a map on the other hand is completely local. If the map is widely disliked, a change can be seen immediately as an improvement by that portion of the player base. For those who don't dislike the current iteration, it's a small enough change that it is likely to be tolerated until familiarity re-exerts itself. Unless, say, we're dealing with a game where there's only one widely played on map.

So, reverting the XP System would be disasterious because it would be plunging players into "unfamiliar" gameplay, but the actual introduction of the XP System (which did the exact same thing years ago) was acceptable... why? Both things would result in massive game changes that are all-encompassing.

I appreciate that people do not like change, but there is a limit to that. The shift from XP back to Solar would not even be that big of a change; I believe, as I spelled out before, you would barely even feel a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:42 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
So, reverting the XP System would be disasterious because it would be plunging players into "unfamiliar" gameplay, but the actual introduction of the XP System (which did the exact same thing years ago) was acceptable... why?


It wasn't. I believe I was explicit in stating that I view the introduction of the XP system as an unmitigated disaster.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:50 am 
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i agree with points made by slevens and hurley.

xp system is * and was implented poorly and is stupid and ronimos stupid and the games stupid, but you cant revert it at this point

do yall really wanna rocket doing 400 dmg to turrets after getting like 4 kills on you

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:27 pm 
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hurleybird wrote:
It wasn't. I believe I was explicit in stating that I view the introduction of the XP system as an unmitigated disaster.

Oh—I thought there was more to it.

You would argue that it is better to leave the "unmitigated disaster" in the game than actually rectify it simply because reverting the absolute failure of a system would cause too much change?

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:53 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Oh—I thought there was more to it.

You would argue that it is better to leave the "unmitigated disaster" in the game than actually rectify it simply because reverting the absolute failure of a system would cause too much change?

The introduction of it was awful due to how balance got completely thrown out of whack for so long. The process of changing it is what would be terrible. I think describing the xp system as it currently stands as an "unmitigated disaster" is somewhat unfair.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:35 pm 
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So, the XP System at its introduction was awful because it completely changed the balance situation, but equally so would be reverting it because that too would completely change balance?

We want to keep it, then? I am not following. Either it is working as intended now—debatable, given how often we hear about it—or it is not. I have yet to get a torrent of "that's not how the maths works, LPT" for my previous wall o' text, which confuses me even more.

I am under the impression that the XP System is not achieving anything, if that makes this any clearer.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:19 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
hurleybird wrote:
It wasn't. I believe I was explicit in stating that I view the introduction of the XP system as an unmitigated disaster.

Oh—I thought there was more to it.

You would argue that it is better to leave the "unmitigated disaster" in the game than actually rectify it simply because reverting the absolute failure of a system would cause too much change?


It was an unmitigated disaster at release. Although I still personally prefer the way things were prior to the XP system, I'd be lying if I said that the XP system hasn't improved a heck of a lot from its initial implementation. At this point backtracking would be closer to a lateral move, albeit everything else being equal it's a lateral move I'd like.

But everything else isn't equal. Besides the necessary re-balance, simply removing the XP system isn't likely to bring back many of thousands of players who left years ago. It is likely to put out players who joined after the XP system was implemented, who only know the XP system and nothing else. And given the overall impression of a dying game with a collapsing playerbase, they aren't likely to stick around long enough to become acclimatised to the old system. There's just too much risk for too little potential reward.


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