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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Any chance of re arranging the item and what level they unlock? Some item really define a character like lonestar bouncing dynamite. It just suck for lower level player.

On that note, how does the match making work? I was playing against some really new player just now, and I feel kinda bad, especially when they rage quit, I always worry they'll stop playing.

Any chance of lowering the stun duration of froggy dash, at 1.5 sec when you can use the dash every 3 sec it's pretty nuts. At the same time, how about boosting his early game blaster damage, or increasing his shoot range, his blaster is pretty pathetic and early game you have trouble just killing normal bot.

This might be very personal, but I alway have problem playing with yuri, I find his time wrap bubble to be almost useless without upgrade and then you need too many upgrade to make it good, I think it should naturally buff his teammate or have larger area. And his mine don't really do it for me, they take to long to deploy, don't stay long enough and don't cause enough damage for how easy they are to avoid. Maybe have an item that make them invisible while staying longer on the field. And maybe increase the natural CD but in exchange make them deploy faster. And maybe an item so that they deploy super fast but explode on contact.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Wow... Thanks for the super quick reply. Note that I am not claiming these things are 100% broken, I just felt we had a HUGE advantage against all teams (we did play the game for about 8 hours straight and only lost against the same strategy) and it bore some looking into.

With that said, I think you underestimate how quickly this can get out of hand. Most games ended with the opposing team being level 7-8....

And I'm all for Voltar having a DPS... I mean, I get his speed boost, Piggy bank and Solar upgrades right away and then proceed to do nothing but DPS for him. I just feel his DPS is a bit too high. 10 damage per orb, 4 orbs, shooting... How fast DO they shoot with 2 upgrades? Once per second? Even 40 DPS still considerably higher than most other characters, even when specc'ed that way.

Also, keep in mind that, desite his low HP, he is still pretty hard to kill. His walk speed is pretty high, and he doesn't have to slow down, or even look at an enemy to shoot him. Every other character, when running away, just turns tail and goes. Voltar is still shooting at his enemy, with his high DPS, WHILE avoding his attacks and moving faster... He's got better mobility, higher damage and harder to dodge attacks than his pursuers.

And yes, Froggy G's dash is awesome, especially with the stun. And a Hyperbull can slow things down a bit. And for the record, the closest thing to opposition we found was a Clunk player named Furion who was REALLY good at ambushing with explosions (setting them up off screen then landing a split second before it went off, it was pretty damned impressive), but in the end of the day, these strategies tended to help in engagements, but not the war. We could still drop any unattended Turret a LOT faster than they could. 4 maxed dmg and speed drone'd Voltar alone can wreak HAVOC on a Turret long before anyone can respond. Especially if they have to disengage a fight against the other two.

We don't even bother defending, we just charge the turret. If the opposing team leaves their offense to try and stop us, we get more time attacking than they do (the time it takes them to get to us). If they DON'T, we drop bases a lot faster than they do even if it's a two on three situation, we can just base race and win.

The stage with the gravity anomaly is probably the hardest for this because of the lay out, but I just didn't see any way out of this. Some teams could delay us, but that's about it.

I could be wrong. It's too early to have any kind of certainty about any of this. But I figured there should be some sort of warning... So here it is. You've been warned.

PS: Not sure how likely new content is, or isn't, but if I may drop an idea. Maybe some of the upgrades could have cosmetic differences in the character. Maybe knowing Leon's sword can slow down, or that Voltar's drones went from useless or death machines, or that Clunk's bite now drains a bajillion HP AND ensnares people, etc BEFORE engaging against (or WITH) them would be useful. Although having people charge the until-then-useless Voltar and dropping in about two seconds flat IS pretty hillarious...


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 8:23 pm
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Deadpool wrote:
Wow... Thanks for the super quick reply. Note that I am not claiming these things are 100% broken, I just felt we had a HUGE advantage against all teams (we did play the game for about 8 hours straight and only lost against the same strategy) and it bore some looking into.

With that said, I think you underestimate how quickly this can get out of hand. Most games ended with the opposing team being level 7-8....

And I'm all for Voltar having a DPS... I mean, I get his speed boost, Piggy bank and Solar upgrades right away and then proceed to do nothing but DPS for him. I just feel his DPS is a bit too high. 10 damage per orb, 4 orbs, shooting... How fast DO they shoot with 2 upgrades? Once per second? Even 40 DPS still considerably higher than most other characters, even when specc'ed that way.

Also, keep in mind that, desite his low HP, he is still pretty hard to kill. His walk speed is pretty high, and he doesn't have to slow down, or even look at an enemy to shoot him. Every other character, when running away, just turns tail and goes. Voltar is still shooting at his enemy, with his high DPS, WHILE avoding his attacks and moving faster... He's got better mobility, higher damage and harder to dodge attacks than his pursuers.

And yes, Froggy G's dash is awesome, especially with the stun. And a Hyperbull can slow things down a bit. And for the record, the closest thing to opposition we found was a Clunk player named Furion who was REALLY good at ambushing with explosions (setting them up off screen then landing a split second before it went off, it was pretty damned impressive), but in the end of the day, these strategies tended to help in engagements, but not the war. We could still drop any unattended Turret a LOT faster than they could. 4 maxed dmg and speed drone'd Voltar alone can wreak HAVOC on a Turret long before anyone can respond. Especially if they have to disengage a fight against the other two.

We don't even bother defending, we just charge the turret. If the opposing team leaves their offense to try and stop us, we get more time attacking than they do (the time it takes them to get to us). If they DON'T, we drop bases a lot faster than they do even if it's a two on three situation, we can just base race and win.

The stage with the gravity anomaly is probably the hardest for this because of the lay out, but I just didn't see any way out of this. Some teams could delay us, but that's about it.

I could be wrong. It's too early to have any kind of certainty about any of this. But I figured there should be some sort of warning... So here it is. You've been warned.

PS: Not sure how likely new content is, or isn't, but if I may drop an idea. Maybe some of the upgrades could have cosmetic differences in the character. Maybe knowing Leon's sword can slow down, or that Voltar's drones went from useless or death machines, or that Clunk's bite now drains a bajillion HP AND ensnares people, etc BEFORE engaging against (or WITH) them would be useful. Although having people charge the until-then-useless Voltar and dropping in about two seconds flat IS pretty hillarious...

Noticed this aswell last night when laying with Azule, he was Leon I was Voltar and I would just follow him to a turret he'd pop a drone, I'd pop a healing turret and summon drones and just heal them, we had a few matches where it was over before we could go back and get are second upgrades. The strategy is definately good but the AI Lonestars Clunks knew how to deal with it sort of, but the players had no clue. I'd say the AI was some of the harder matches while getting actual humans just continued to be a push over. I switched to hiring halfway through just because it was getting a little to easy lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:39 pm 
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I'd say it's harder to break up that combo than it's made out. Especially without an Awesomenaut that's good with crowd control.

I remember running into that combo when I was a Voltar and there's nothing you can do there. Since I didn't have the best upgrades for the orbs, so my damage output was crap. Not that it would have done much good anyway. Also don't like switching his heal to attack, and pushback is pretty useless from my experience so I've since replaced it.

And, even if I had a teammate with me they'd have to get out there... and I'd have to go with them to actually help. Except they've got a huge backing of droids, a clone, leon, voltar and probably those bigger droids if they got through a turret already. Voltar doesn't last long there.

Heck, throw in any third awesomenaut that's good with damage and your done. Or even Yuri with health recovery upgrades for extra insurance for healing Voltar and the others from attackers.

@topic; There are certain places where Yuri, with the range upgrade, can attack turrets without the turret being able to attack back. It's a 'sweet spot'. Is this intended? The stage with the worm has one, it's a spot behind the platform nearest the turret that if you stand on your shot at. If you fly somewhere around there you're able to hit the turret.

edit; Never mind, found a thread about it answering that question.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:39 pm 
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I guess its safe to say that cluck and leon is a very powerfull combo....and even more broken wen theres a healer backing em up.

My team was leon(me), cluck and an healer.

Guess what hapened, we actually won the game with a time of 3:13...

The other team was hiding behind turrets and attacking, but there DPS was too low to stop us...we just puched once and won...did not even need to go to the shop. xD


I must say, leon is the best Anti-hero character if build right, backstab is really powerfull wen paired with attack speed + the +20 initial damage form being invisible, usally make people panic. has there try to run away, there get owned by backstab.

Most of my games i have over 10 kills and only a few deaths(if any...)


You know what is missing? The ability to see invisible characters. For me, it might be a big reison leon is so powerfull. If you dont have that, its easy to wait for an enemy to pop out near there base, and wait a bit so the enemy is far eneuf form safety, and then... BANG! No matter what the guy do at this point, he cannot do anything but die.

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My Lonestar Build : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4896
My Clunk Build : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4983&p=34467#p34467
More to come...


Last edited by Solidsnakedog on Thu May 03, 2012 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 4:31 am
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Game seems really balanced! The only possible worry I have *so far* is that I unlocked Yuri and going all-out on upgrading mines seems really strong. A mine every 3 seconds, two mines kill the majority of the cast, and the laser can finish off everything the mines leave. Love this character :D

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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:56 pm 
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@QAUKeR---

Quote:
xD the clunk bot tends to get stuck if you shoot it while jumping and explode hiting nothing, etc... some times i have seen him jumpin then going down, jumping then going down... its imo the worst AI in the game


We recently have build extra tools to see more detailed what the AI is doing. Clunk AI definitely needs some work. :) This is on our to-do list.

Quote:
one thing that should be added in the future is that bots use teleport, is really ridiculous seeing them walk half the map back to the base... when they could just teleport if no enemy is arround


I think we have build the feature to allow bots to teleport, but it isn't yet implemented. Not sure though will check tomorrow. I'll get back to you on this.

There are no Yuri and Voltar bots in the game. They were just too unpredictable. We might add them in an update, since we now have better AI tools to resolve their problems. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:28 pm 
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I think Froggy G's stun can be pretty ridiculous and Leons stealth is a little too good. Other than that I have no complaints. Even those are minor and their might be ways to beat them that I'm not seeing.

If a team runs in a pack and you get stunned, you'red dead. Unless youre a full health crunk and even then it depends on what 3 guys they're running.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:18 am 
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If one of the characters had an upgrade that could force Leon out of stealth, then that would help a lot with him. There's no real counter to his invisibility that I've seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:25 am 
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Elvick wrote:
If one of the characters had an upgrade that could force Leon out of stealth, then that would help a lot with him. There's no real counter to his invisibility that I've seen.


I managed to kill some invisible Leon with Yuri's laser : just shooting in all the directions and he died. But it was after I saw him becoming invisibile, I didn't find any strategy for those who come to me when they already are invisible.


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