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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:06 am 
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I am confused by the claim that draft mode is intimidating. What was described in this thread is just a character selection system where you're prompted to select a character. That is what we have now. It's not intimidating now.

The difference of course would be taking turns instead of selecting simultaneously. And what is intimidating about having people take turns? Yeah sure, everybody's waiting on just you, when it's your turn. But in the low leagues, nobody has deep knowledge of character-to-character counters anyway, so you're still just picking what you think might be cool, and you know everybody else is doing that too. Where's the intimidation?

It does add one more possible reason for teammates to mean-spiritedly criticize one another. But we already have plenty of those and always will. I don't see why adding one more would change much.

Anyway, unless I'm missing something, it's trivial to make the drafting system mandatory for everyone yet also optional for everyone: Just let a player pick a character before it's their turn to pick, so that when their turn does arise, it then immediately ends (because they already picked). The enemy team wouldn't be allowed to see the early selection (though the person's two teammates would I suppose), so the draft system would still function just as if the player had waited to select until their turn began. If the UI refrained from prodding new players to wait until their turn officially began, then they wouldn't even have to notice that any drafting system existed; thus there would be no intimidation (except maybe coming via teammates' complaints). They could naturally grow into consciously using it (or consciously ignoring it) at their own pace. Seems okay to me.

It would take some careful UI design to convey all the drafting information well enough that it would be easily noticed and used without also prodding new players too heavily to pay attention to it and potentially be distracted by it, but I think that would be feasible to do. At worst, you could just change the character selection screen a bit between the lower leagues and the higher leagues, with an accompanying bit of tutorial text saying "You've gotten far enough to unlock vision of enemy character selections!! Here's how it works!!" But even then, all players could use the same drafting mode; players who had never left the low leagues would just not know they were using it, because the UI would hide the enemy team information and the information about which player was where in the 1-2-3 order.

I don't even care about drafting, but this seems easy and harmless to add.


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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:52 pm 
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The only real solution that would allow everyone to continue enjoying the game as they like would be separate queues for competitive and quick play. Who knows how well that would work out though, possibly one mode would just die and get unused with how many players there are.
Even then the leaderboards need a fix of some kind. Leagues should be based on rating instead of rank or something so skill is represented better by them. Since F2P happened the leaderboards exploded and everyone of many different skill levels are in L2 regardless of whether they actually are some of the better players. Mostly just the people who actually play the game are in L2 right now. Leaderboard resets should probably happen to stop them being bloated with players who don't actually play, and could give people an insentive to try and climb the leaderboards to end in a high spot at the end of them. Every 4 months would probably be enough, could need something to stop people being matched really poorly after the leaderboard resets though.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:03 pm 
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I really love the idea. The first ones to pick will be a little punished cause the ennemy team can easely take 2 counters of that naut and vice versa but this is the rules... jungle rules! :raehands:

But two things are important to me: don't show usernames (cause if you fighted him already, you know wich naut he usually play and ban it) and the map have to remain random and selected before the draft as it does now. You still can see the map before selecting the nauts. Maybe in a cool way even before the draft begins like "The next map will be: ... Aguillon!"

It can be coupled with the idea of having more leagues so only players on some leagues can do raft because they played enough to know wich naut to pick in what cases, but the others will play like now cause it's a little more casual that way and maybe better to understand and learn the game mechanics before having to select a naut but don't mind of the comp the ennemy or ally team have.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:11 pm 
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I think it would be a great idea if everyone could ban 1 single naut.
It would help a lot with the problems I'm experiencing when solo-qing or duo-qing.

Every time I duo, I play vs some bs team comp (mostly Smiles) and that alone makes it impossible to win with a random 3rd.
I basically only premade on my main account now because of how stupid matchmaking can be.

Being able to ban Smiles or stall makes all the difference, I mean if there where to be tournaments right now Smiles would never make it through the first ban stage. :chucho:
So how come anyone should have to put up with playing vs Smiles, Derpl, Sentry with 2 random teammates?

I see little downsides to having a simple draft like this, and a lot of upsides.
-It would make pubs a lot more fun.
-Encourage Ronimo to balance certain nauts better if they get banned all the time.
-Add more strategy to the game.
-Encourage players to learn more nauts.
-Reduce toxicity.
-But most important of all : it would make pubs more fair.

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Last edited by Jas123c on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Jas123c wrote:
I think it would be a great idea if everyone could ban 1 single naut.
It would help a lot with the problems I'm experiencing when solo-qing or duo-qing.

Every time I duo, I play vs some bs team comp (mostly Smiles) and that alone makes it impossible to win with a random 3rd.
I basically only premade on my main account now because of how stupid matchmaking can be.

Being able to ban Smiles or stall makes all the difference, I mean if there where to be tournaments right now Smiles would never make it through the first ban stage. :chucho:
So how come anyone should have to play vs Smiles, Derpl, Sentry with 2 random teammates?

I see little downsides to having a simple draft like this, and a lot of upsides.



should the bans be two sided then, because 6 bans seems like a lot, especially considering the char rotation is only 4 chars.

and if they aren´t two sided, there would still be the possibility that 3 of the rotation are banned and having 2 f2p players in one team without a char bought would wield problems

i too am for bans, but with the current model it doesn´t seem possible in pubs

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:23 pm 
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CraftedNightmare wrote:
should the bans be two sided then, because 6 bans seems like a lot, especially considering the char rotation is only 4 chars.

and if they aren´t two sided, there would still be the possibility that 3 of the rotation are banned and having 2 f2p players in one team without a char bought would wield problems

i too am for bans, but with the current model it doesn´t seem possible in pubs


Didn't really think of the nauts rotation, good feedback.
I originally thought the bans to be both sided, since 6 bans really isn't that much and even used to be the standard for "competitive".
However on second thought, I think it would be better if the bans where one sided.

Ronimo could always increase the nauts rotation, or make the original nauts unlocked by default. :shrug:
The joys of going free2play. :aylaroll:

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:05 pm 
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I think draft in low league is not a good idea. They barelly know how to play so I think picking nauts as we do now, for them, is better.

In the other hand, when you are league 2, the draft system is a must. League 2 have more knowledge and require a nice matchmaking to have a fun game. Maybe the draft can trigger only if you are L2 or L1.

Maybe a kind of tutorial can be created when you enter in the league 2 "how to draft" so they are not surpised the first L2 game.

But that also mean L2 and L1 can't play with/against L3 or lower and can have some issues for playing in squad with a L3 when you are L2.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:54 pm 
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We have brought up the idea of a draft mode a number of times, and it has always been met with slightly divisive opinions.

Some argue that it goes against the "casual" nature of the game (for want of a better word), and I agree. We are not Dota and never will be, so why we try to compete is beyond my understanding.

On the other hand, it would (could) give a boost to competitive play, which could in turn boost the playerbase through word-of-mouth.

Although I am fairly sure there are, like, three people that play Awesomenauts competitively. I know there are (or were) several community sourced tournaments, with credit where due for the effort.

Would it be worth the time to implement for such a small target audience considering the slightly more pressing, looming problems?

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:16 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
On the other hand, it would (could) give a boost to competitive play, which could in turn boost the playerbase through word-of-mouth.


If it's only for that, indeed it's useless.

But my point is: when I play a naut I love, but having a hard time because the ennemy team have counters, you have to admit it's not fun at all.

Having a draft (not with bans, just the naut selection) you can see what will pick the ennemy and if you can play a naut freely or just forget it just because you'll have a dang hard time.

This is not to be more "competitive-like", it's to be more fun to play a naut.

I played with a friend yesterday, he said "I don't play jimmy anymore cause I'm scared of playing against a smiles". I said that it's been a while since we did not played against a smiles and that could be safe to play jimmy. guess what? A smiles in the ennemy team. The only one I saw in 6 games, no joke.

The draft can avoid that "scare of being against" thing. If you are the last to pick, you can choose the naut without being scared of what can be possibly wrong, because you actually see what you are playing against.

And it's not a big waste of time to let people 15sec to select a naut in a turn-base style. The first one of each team pick a naut, then the second one, then the fird one. It's the surprise for the first one only but the others can select a naut depending on what selected the ennemy/allied teams.

It never happend to you? The akward moment in soloq when you don't know what you teammates want to play and end up with a crappy team comp because no one decided wich naut to pick? Well draft can avoid that aswell.

But that's just my opinion and I can understand that people who just want to launch a single game and don't want to be bothered by a draft system will be against the idea, but maybe if they can have a good game because he don't have counters or both team are balanced? He may have a good time playing his casual game of the day.

You know Lord Protector, I love seeing you reply on topics. I love how you act and how you answer to things by asking questions and I'll do the same:

    - For what a draft can be useful?
    - Can a draft be fun?
    - Can the draft system become boring after 100 games?
    - Can it give better/funnier games?
    - Can a team have more adventage than the other one by taking better counters?

I like to do this aswell, but I never tried in forums. Ask questions is the best way to think about a subject in different way, and maybe change the minds of everybody and all agree on something.

Make me change my mind! Give me your point! Give me answers! :drool:

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:04 pm 
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NekiCoule wrote:
Make me change my mind! Give me your point! Give me answers! :drool:

Making people drool is one of my pastimes.
That will be a signature by the end of the day.

NekiCoule wrote:
But my point is: when I play a naut I love, but having a hard time because the ennemy team have counters, you have to admit it's not fun at all.

Having a draft (not with bans, just the naut selection) you can see what will pick the ennemy and if you can play a naut freely or just forget it just because you'll have a dang hard time.

This is not to be more "competitive-like", it's to be more fun to play a naut.

I played with a friend yesterday, he said "I don't play jimmy anymore cause I'm scared of playing against a smiles". I said that it's been a while since we did not played against a smiles and that could be safe to play jimmy. guess what? A smiles in the ennemy team. The only one I saw in 6 games, no joke.

The draft can avoid that "scare of being against" thing. If you are the last to pick, you can choose the naut without being scared of what can be possibly wrong, because you actually see what you are playing against.

And it's not a big waste of time to let people 15sec to select a naut in a turn-base style. The first one of each team pick a naut, then the second one, then the fird one. It's the surprise for the first one only but the others can select a naut depending on what selected the ennemy/allied teams.

It never happend to you? The akward moment in soloq when you don't know what you teammates want to play and end up with a crappy team comp because no one decided wich naut to pick? Well draft can avoid that aswell.

Oh, I can sympathise very well this this indeed.

I know exactly what it is like to have the game decided for you, because I was (for a fair time) the only person in the top 100 to main Ayla... in soloqueue, no less. Some enemy compositions were so utterly untouchable that I started to use AAyla to much success simply because Rage would have been so useless.

I do not, however, think that people would want to draft their picks. Sure, there are those of us that do support the idea, but it does go against Awesomenauts' core idea of being more relaxed (not that the identity seems to matter much now).

It also opens up counterpicking as well, which would force certain 'Nauts to be either picked last or not at all, if the draft timer is too short. It would, or could, also result in delayed picks as seen in Dota, where both the choosing players wait as long as possible to pick, so as to try and counterpick their opponent. Dota resolves that with drafting time and penalties for overtime, but that is a far more serious competitive environment (even in public games).

It could work, but I cannot see it being implemented in a way that would work. Alternatively, just allowing us to see what the enemy has picked would alleviate the coin-flip, as it were, but would still result in the previous problems, perhaps even more so.

NekiCoule wrote:
But that's just my opinion and I can understand that people who just want to launch a single game and don't want to be bothered by a draft system will be against the idea, but maybe if they can have a good game because he don't have counters or both team are balanced? He may have a good time playing his casual game of the day.

Part of the problem comes from the smaller team sizes, I would say. If you counter someone on the enemy team, you effectively reduce their output by a third, where in Dota or HotS the effect is not so pronounced because of the two extra players. Now, that works both ways, but drafting will not resolve it at any rate.

Coupled with how important a single death can be (due to the greater responsibility each player has on a team), this quickly dictates games. See: Ayla versus effectively all the top 100 mains at the moment. This is also an (and my) argument against backdooring, but that is a different topic.

NekiCoule wrote:
You know Lord Protector, I love seeing you reply on topics. I love how you act and how you answer to things by asking questions and I'll do the same:

This. This right here.

Take notes, everyone else. Especially those of you from the Sentry AA thread/witch-hunt:

NekiCoule wrote:
    - For what a draft can be useful?

Organising a more competitive environment, and allowing strategic choices against the enemy composition. Both things I would argue do not fit into Awesomenauts but could be worth a shot (if we had the numbers for a split queue, which we do not, thank the F2P update).

NekiCoule wrote:
    - Can a draft be fun?

Insofar as competitive can be fun, which is generally a resounding no... until you win.

NekiCoule wrote:
    - Can the draft system become boring after 100 games?

Most things are boring in excess (except buttercream), although I would say being able to actually work against the enemy's choices instead of hoping Lady Luck flips the ace is far more interesting that being constantly shafted by her.

NekiCoule wrote:
    - Can it give better/funnier games?

"Better" in terms of strategy? Yes.

"Funnier" in terms of being able to enjoy oneself? Perhaps. I suppose knowing not to choose Ayla because the enemies had the audacity to pick pretty much anyone from 75% of the roster would lead to more fun games, although fewer as Ayla and more as Rocco/Raelynn.

NekiCoule wrote:
    - Can a team have more adventage than the other one by taking better counters?

Yes, just as they can have the advantage now by getting lucky. It is the only part of Awesomenauts that is luck-based, except for whatever is beating you at any particular moment.

NekiCoule wrote:
I like to do this aswell, but I never tried in forums. Ask questions is the best way to think about a subject in different way, and maybe change the minds of everybody and all agree on something.

NekiCoule wrote:
...and maybe change the minds of everybody and all agree on something.

NekiCoule wrote:
...everybody and all agree on...

NekiCoule wrote:
...everybody agree...

NekiCoule wrote:
...everybody agree...

I am going to screenshot that and have it framed with the caption "Behold, the innocence of youth."

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