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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:42 pm 
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I agree with the OP, the hummingdroid randomly blocking you is stupid. To be honest, I never got why they changed the saw droid into a humming droid in the early days. The fact that it spawns a droid is cool, but the blocking is stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Back when it was a sawblade droid, it was even worse at actually dealing damage to enemy Awesomenauts that it might as well have been a block of hitpoints that just sat there. It was used exclusively for generating push on turrets. While the hummingbird's bodyblocking is annoying, it does at least have some value as a little extra damage—not that it's used for it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Are we talking about humming? Don't know why it's better than sawblade? Finally! Something I can contribute to with a vague semblance of confidence.
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Well, when it comes to humming, humming on rift just has a lot more uses than sawblade droid could ever have, sawblade would be far superior at attacking a turret and tanking, due to the fact that it has a turret damage shield, significantly higher base health, slightly higher DPS but far superior turret damage, and that it also has the highest health regen among the droids, while humming has none at all.

I might get this wrong, but doing the math, end game with sawblade's health being 1415, turret shielding outright giving him pretty much 30% more max health vs turrets, not including any outside factors such as enemy nauts or droids, the math is:
1415x1.3=1839.5 I'll round it to 1840, while turret's dps is 267 (My math came out as 268, but I'll trust the gamepedia) a sawblade with no interference can last...
1840/267=6.89 just short of 7 seconds, with the inclusion of regen, a sawblade droid regens 30 health a second, and droid regen doesn't appear to scale, let's saw 6.5 seconds, rounding down because it can't quite regen when it's dead, can it?
6.5x30=195 so about 200 health via regen, with that in mind:
2040/267=7.64 A sawblade droid that is uncontested can last more or less 7.5 seconds late game in it's prime, compare that with humming's survivability, with no shield, and no regen.
666/267=2.49 just shy of 2.5 seconds,
Now let's go onto damage, sawblade has a slightly higher dps than humming, humming's 100 at level 20, and sawblade's 108 at level 20, the gap begins to widen when we account for the facts that sawblade droid lasts significantly longer against turret, and the damage amp for turrets is far higher late game for sawblade droids, their damage being 145% against turrets vs humming's 120%
108x1.45=156.6 so 157 DPS if you want to round up, but I'll go with 156 to be generous towards humming.
100x1.2=120 Not a hard one, I know, but 120 DPS, now I'll add in the time they get to swing at the turret.
156x7.5=1170 Sawblade's 1170
120x2.5=300 Humming's 300,
If I did the math correctly and am considering the right factors,Sawblade has nearly triple the potential damage towards turrets humming does vs turrets at level 20.

Now, to be fair, sawblade droids have to spend a bit of time approaching turret, so some of that time may be shaved off, and chances are they will be dealt with before seven and a half seconds, and humming won't be attacked by sawblade droids. But when the entire team is wiped and you need a droid to tank turret, sawblade is far superior, sawblade on rift could be dropped right in front of turret without having to travel there, and could be placed outside of other droid aggro range, my point being that it would change the upgrade in a way that would remove a lot of it's alternative uses, and only make it useful for three things:
Tanking turret
Poking turret
Vision

While humming is far less superior at this, it gets to have multiple uses, as it is good at body blocking as stated earlier which is fantastic for aggressive Raelynn plays and chasing running enemies, it is also ranged while also having incredibly high homing, making it far less susceptible to kiting, it can even hit enemies it shot at just before they go invisible, it also provides vision like sawblade, but it does one thing that Sawblade droids could never hope to do reliably, and that's block abilities.

It's great at stopping Voltar's drones, it can completely screw up Gnaw's spit, or ruin a cocoon, you can stop an empowered scissor by Ksenia when she engages and she'll be down that burst of initial damage, you can run off low, plop it down behind you while Chucho's winding up a bomb, and it can grab the bomb instead, then there are nauts you have to be very careful using humming against like Ayla and Penny, because a Penny could accidentally pounce the humming, but a good Penny will likely angle around it if you're not dancing around it yourself, and she can even use it for free charges, while an Ayla's evil eye could be blocked and you just cut off her burst damage, Ayla could also go into rage as you put down a rift, and humming can increase her passive but end up being irrelevant in the fight otherwise, since Ayla can slip right past humming in rage.

If a derpl's going speed nuke and I'm not sure why he would. and tries to land a nuke outside of point-blank, you can detonate it prematurely by dropping humming in it's collision. Humming could outright force Lonestar to buy Mr. TNT to give out any reliable damage when trying to trinamite you, hell, say you're fighting a Raelynn who for some reason doesn't get piercing, and rushes full damage and HC definitely not me. if she drops a rift, you could drop a rift in response and block her HC shot, the burst she invested so heavily in was just countered because you predicted her play.

In conclusion, I have to say where Sawblade would be great at doing it's few purposes as a T-800 upgrade, in fact, far superior than humming, It doesn't have nearly as much creativity as humming does. It puts actual thought into facerifting other than trying to trap people into it, and I can say with confidence, the upgrade would become more bland in the process and would only really compliment a full-siege raelynn build.

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:02 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Back when it was a sawblade droid, it was even worse at actually dealing damage to enemy Awesomenauts that it might as well have been a block of hitpoints that just sat there. It was used exclusively for generating push on turrets. While the hummingbird's bodyblocking is annoying, it does at least have some value as a little extra damage—not that it's used for it anyway.


Isn't that still the reason you would buy the upgrade nowadays?
It only has the additional benefit of randomly bodyblocking you now. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:30 am 
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(I made a post and then saw that Pheoniz already covered the damage each type of droid does to the turret)

I remember getting bodyblocked a lot by the sawblade droid spawn back in the day, especially because it spawned in the air a bit. Honestly I don't like droid spawn at all and would rather it be something entirely different, but I prefer the option that has the least turret cheesing potential, which seems to be the flying droid.

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:08 pm 
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Uh, Pheoniz.

Shields don't work that way.

Neither does regeneration as a portion of EHP.

Sawblades have 850 HP at base, and 1,415.25 at level 20. I'll put the maximum level values in bold to differentiate them, because structures don't scale and it'll make a difference in the end.

Turrets deal 266.6... (effectively 267) DPS at all stages of the game. Assuming that, for the sake of ease, the Sawblade spawns instantly within the turret's range of fire and all attacks hit without delay, it lasts 3.18 (5.30) seconds.

Except that's not the case. Sawblades have a 30% damage reduction bonus against turrets.

A 30% "shield", because that's more or less what it is, equates to a 42.9% increase in EHP:

    EHP = HP x (1 / (1 - (sum of shield values, e.g. 0.3)))

    1 / (1 - (0.3)) = 1 / 0.7 = 1.429 = 42.9%

This is why shielding is exponential and almost always a better idea than stacking raw HP, even outside of Awesomenauts.

Because of the increase in EHP, the Sawblade can actually resist 4.55 (7.57) seconds of turret fire before being blown into tiny pieces and scattered across the scenery.

This calculation is irrelevant for Hummingbirds, however, because they don't have a damage reduction bonus versus structures. Their 400 (666) HP suffers the full brunt of the damage, and as a result, they die in only 1.50 (2.49) seconds. They're much less durable.

However, it doesn't stop there. It's not so simple.

We need to factor in the base regeneration of the Sawblade as a percentage of its EHP, not base HP. Otherwise, things get messy (and wrong) very quickly. Sawblades regenerate 1,800 HP per minute, or 30 HP per second. Because this healing is raw HP and not EHP, it is effectively 42.9% more effective (hence why the E in EHP stands for effective and not extra-salty or edible). Sawblades therefore regenerate 42.86 "EHP" per second.

If we subtract this from the turret's DPS as it's dealt (and therein resolve it in the same tick), the Sawblade can withstand 5.42 (9.02) seconds of turret fire, including base regeneration.

Despite all this, we're still not even close. These figures are also referring to a "natural" (i.e. unsummoned) droid of its type. In reality, summoned droids, either from T-800 Dome or The Last Pieridae Transformae, have reduced health compared to their counterparts. I don't actually know what the figure was for the old Sawblades, but if we take the fact that a summoned Hummingbird has 300 HP at base (a 25% reduction), I'll reasonably assume it would be about the same for the old Sawblade, giving us 637.5 (1061.44) HP at base, if it existed today.

    N.B.: I've just noticed that, on the T-800 Dome page, it lists the Hummingbird as being summoned at "full health" (i.e. 400). As that page was last edited—at time of writing—on the 19th December, 2016, I'm going to assume it is outdated.

From that, Raelynn's "old" summoned Sawblade could tank about 4.06 (6.77) seconds of turret damage, and her "new" Hummingbird a meagre 1.13 (1.87) seconds in comparison. This calculation is again thrown into disarray if we look at the old wiki, which claims that her old summoned Sawblade had 50%|100% of a normal one's HP. I'm not sure how accurate it is given that it's not been updated since the Mesozoic era, so I'm going to use my values and assume that the old Sawblade exists post-XP. This is why good documentation of game mechanics is important: see, the Dota wiki.

That said, now that we know how long each type could last—in a perfect environment, mind you—we can figure out how much damage they could theoretically deal...

...except doing that is very difficult because droids get a tiered bonus to their damage as a game goes on. I wanted to say that this is merely a remnant of the old "leveling" system that happened every 6 minutes pre-XP, but the tier values are present on both the old wiki and the new one—and neither set is the same, so it must have been updated after the XP System, which makes me think it still applies. For the sake of my sanity, I'll assume droids always deal 100% damage to turrets at all stages of the game, and not the 85%|105%|125%|145% and 60%|80%|100%|120% suggested on the new wiki. The means of those values are 115% for Sawblades and 90% for Hummingbirds, so multiply as you wish.

Assuming all this, if it existed today, Raelynn's "old" Sawblade could deal 65.45 (108.97) DPS, and a total of 265.727 (737.73) damage over its lifetime—in perfect conditions. Her "new" Hummingbird deals a mere 60 (99.9) DPS and 67.8 (186.81) over its short life.

    N.B.: These numbers are frustrated even further by the fact that 'Nautsbuilder lists T-800 Dome's droid as dealing 95.83 DPS at base, despite it then stating it deals 60 damage per shot, presumably with the same attack speed of a "natural" Hummingbird—in my world, (60 / 60) x 60 = 60, not 95.83, but who knows how 'Nautsbuilder comes to that conclusion.

Again, bear in mind that this ignores the tiered damage—if that is indeed still a thing, then we're looking at much higher figures at the game goes on. You may plug those numbers into your twelve-year-old scientific calculators at your own leisure, and you'll find the answers to look more like Pheoniz's ones at level 20.

So, in short, the new Hummingbird's really, really bad at dealing damage to turrets, and its only real uses are either incredibly niche or just not that... well, useful. It's better than the old Sawblade at irritating people, but so is building Timerift properly and without T-800 Dome in the first place.

The rest of what Pheoniz said I agree with.

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:18 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
So, in short, the new Hummingbird's really, really bad at dealing damage to turrets

Was the OP arguing that the droid itself deals too much turret damage?

I thought it was pretty much understood that the droid just tanks enough turretfire to Rae to get some shots of her 100% turret damage AA in, and her teammates if they're present.

What makes Raelynn annoying is that she's both an ace turret cheeser and a one-woman push ender. At least Skree's garbo AA doesn't damage turrets and Lonestar doesn't wall Nauts. Rae can do both extremely well.

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:08 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Uh, Pheoniz.

Shields don't work that way.

Birds fly,
Fish swim,
Niz screws up the moment math is involved.
Thanks for the equations, though, I'm definitely jotting the formula down.
Xelrog wrote:
Was the OP arguing that the droid itself deals too much turret damage?

I thought it was pretty much understood that the droid just tanks enough turretfire to Rae to get some shots of her 100% turret damage AA in, and her teammates if they're present.

What makes Raelynn annoying is that she's both an ace turret cheeser and a one-woman push ender. At least Skree's garbo AA doesn't damage turrets and Lonestar doesn't wall Nauts. Rae can do both extremely well.

This was mostly to oppose the argument that humming droid would be used on it's own to poke turret.

Rinn complained about the droid tanking turret, if I remember correctly, which in my opinion is also a weak point, because humming droids have incredibly low survivability against turrets, especially if they have reduced health like with Genji's. I didn't even know that applied to both summons of humming. If you're using humming to tank a turret, that's almost just as pointless as poking the turret with humming, every second counts, of course, but sacrificing rift for an extra couple seconds to attack the turret isn't worth it in my eyes unless you're force pushing because you've wiped their team, or they're all behind turret. The only time I'd probably force push with humming alone outside of those situations is when turret is already super low, or if one of the droids pushing the turret is low because that not only gives the droid a bit of time to regen, but sometimes the turret will start shooting the full health droid instead after finishing off humming, which can raise the lifetime of a droid push significantly.

I don't really see that much wrong with Raelynn dealing 100% with her AA against turrets, especially since HC bomb deals significantly reduced damage, and humming has a lifetime against turret shorter than the memory of an amnesiac goldfish, while Scree's totem is great for tanking damage, and Lonestar's bull allows him to not only tank turret but his trinamite also allows him to contribute further to structure damage, while for Raelynn to solo a turret with any tanking abilities it will cost 200 solar, and potentially her escape, sure Raelynn might be better damage wise against structures, but that humming isn't going to give her the tanking capabilities of the others in droidless pushes, which can mean all the difference if you have to rush the turret, everyone's low, and your droids are late because they did that thing again with their pathing where they stare at each other for a bit but don't actually fight, then decide to wander off. They do that a lot.

I will begrudgingly admit humming is niche, maybe even annoying, but if used properly, has tons of great subtle uses outside of what it would typically be used for, which in my opinion makes it pretty great, considering how boring a lot of her other upgrades are.

-slightly salty edit-
C'mon guys, you can block evil eye with this thing, and get permanent vision on hiding spots until people kill it or you recast. You can steal their critters, and still have vision in their jungle area! It's cool, I swear! :GnawCry:

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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:21 pm 
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tl;dr


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 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Shorter version:
If you're using Humming to poke turret you're using it wrong,
due to humming's stats and the nature of it being weaker as a summon, using it to tank buys you a couple more seconds at best, and leaves you with one less tool of escaping at wost.

Removing Humming would remove a large amount of it's alternate niche but still useful applications, a thing that almost the rest of Raelynn's kit lacks, and people complain about lacking.

Humming is cool because it blocks people, blocks some abilities if you're quick about it, and provides constant vision in spots where people would try to get the jump on you, which I think it can often be more useful than outright throwing it at turret.

The Humming cult still has room for disciples, just putting it out there.

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