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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Kill a pubstomp tactic, another one takes its place.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
Wow, so it's something you can deal with by using skill?! Teleport gives players the opportunity to outplay and counter it with smart play, while rewarding sentry for outplaying his opponents. We should nerf that, right? Anything that heightens skill levels just shouldn't exist in this game.

If you want to complain about pubstomp tactics I could fart 10 out that teleport can't even hold a candle to.

I'm all for things that are good for high-skill players
What I'm against are things that are bad for low-skill players.

That said, I think you're misunderstanding my argument.

Being able to teleport across the map is both something that gives Sentry a lot of tactical options and has a lot of potential counter-play options from his opponents.

This is the side of the ability I want to preserve.

The other part of it - the one where you can get a giant AoE burst of damage with added Silence by finding a way to roll up to enemies without them seeing you and ganking them with it - Stealth Orb, anyone? - is not something that has a lot of tactical depth to it, and does not have a lot of fun counter-play options. Unless we're using very different definitions of the word 'tactical'.

To bring it back to the original topic:
1.5 seconds of Silence on an ability that requires set-up and smart tactical play to properly utilize is perfectly fine - particularly because Black Hole Sun's decay rate means Sentry is either going to have a weaker combo or just made one hell of a Play of the Game.

1.5 seconds of Silence on an ability that has no wind-up, a giant AoE, and burst damage, and can only be countered by preemptively shooting Sentry or hitting him with a DoT, is a potential problem. It becomes more of a problem when you combine him with 'nauts that can draw fire from him or otherwise prevent him from being shot.

That's the reason I'm against leaving it in: it's only a matter of time before the meta changes in a way that allows for it to be abused more easily, and if it's left in Teleport will be gimped in an effort to fix the problem Teleburst will unavoidably create.

Remember what happened to Voltar when they brought back Twisted Nightmares damage? And Voltar became an unholy abomination that could win entire games on his own?
Remember what happened to Voltar after that? How he went through several patches in a state that bordered on completely unplayable?

In short: this isn't me complaining about something because I'm salty that I keep getting decked by it.
This is me illustrating something that will inevitably become a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Teleport Beacon is inherently a very passive skill, partialy because of its long cooldown and partialy because... you know... it's a static uninteractive object... I'm not sure how you can say that it is an interesting ability.

The game already has a problem with stall so I'm not sure why you'd want to encourage even more of it.

Also rolling up to them with stealth orb only happens on 20% of the maps, and that's the map mechanic being bad, not beacon's fault.


Camkitsune wrote:
It becomes more of a problem when you combine him with 'nauts that can draw fire from him or otherwise prevent him from being shot."

Well... uh, yeah, teamwork tends to do that... it's kind of the point of a team oriented game...


Voltar being gimped happened way earlier than that, at patch 1.21, when he got sniper drones and it went downhill from there. (personal opinion as someone who picked him up after patch 1.15). (Also you just listed Ronimo being incompetent at balance as an excuse for a balance change? what)

I hate oversaturated kits as much as the next guy and I've had a pretty long history of complaining about Sentry (and was even partially responsible for the first nerf to silence beacon, when it went from 3 to 2.5)... but a 1.5 second silence... on an unreliable ability... Ok sure, it has pretty much no windup and it's on a giant AoE skill that does tons of damage but where have I seen this before...


oh right
Image


'cept you can't shoot vinnie to stop his silence.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
Teleport Beacon is inherently a very passive skill, partialy because of its long cooldown and partialy because... you know... it's a static uninteractive object... I'm not sure how you can say that it is an interesting ability.

Because it's a very passive skill that requires proactive strategic thinking to get the most out of.
It doesn't have to shoot waves of bullets or do damage to be powerful.
It also has an interesting level of counter-play in that your opponents CAN just ignore it, or they can bait you into trying to use it and then either punish you or attack the place you were originally defending. THAT is what makes it interesting, and a hell of a lot more so than Gnaw's Weedlings or Yuri's Mines.

Quote:
The game already has a problem with stall so I'm not sure why you'd want to encourage even more of it.

You're going to have to elaborate on how removing the teleburst exploit does this.

Quote:
Also rolling up to them with stealth orb only happens on 20% of the maps, and that's the map mechanic being bad, not beacon's fault.

You missed the point: interactions already exist that completely negate the 'drawback' to using this exploit.
The longer the game goes on, the more of these are going to appear, and the more likely it is that one of them will break the game.


Quote:
Voltar being gimped happened way earlier than that, at patch 1.21, when he got sniper drones and it went downhill from there.
(personal opinion as someone who picked him up after patch 1.15).


I wasn't here for the first year, so I used the example I know of.

Quote:
(Also you just listed Ronimo being incompetent at balance as an excuse for a balance change? what)


'Incompetent' isn't the word I would use - it's basic psychology.
Right now it's only a relatively small problem.
If something happens later that causes the problem to get out of hand, people will want Ronimo to take action. The greater the degree of outcry, the more decisive the action that will be demanded, and the more likely Ronimo is to over-correct.

Quote:
but a 1.5 second silence... on an unreliable ability... Ok sure, it has pretty much no windup and it's on a giant AoE skill that does tons of damage but where have I seen this before...


oh right
Image


'cept you can't shoot vinnie to stop his silence.

And, you know, Vinnie can't hit you with a second CC attack that literally attempts to lock you in place, then bursts you again. :facepalm:

But - again - the problem isn't the silence.
It's the exploit that lets you apply the silence instantly instead of having to set the beacon and then teleport to it later.
I'm not arguing that the silence needs to be nerfed.
I'm arguing that the exploit should be removed before it becomes a bigger problem than it currently is.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:30 am 
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Quote:
But - again - the problem isn't the silence.
It's the exploit that lets you apply the silence instantly instead of having to set the beacon and then teleport to it later.


This is comedy gold, no wonder why this game is dying

I'll just chime in and say GameInSky said everything already, but nooooo, let's not nerf what's REALLY *removed* on sentry and instead focus on the most balanced part of his kit.

Balance subforum : electric boogaloo episode 1


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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Mr Nutz jr wrote:
Quote:
But - again - the problem isn't the silence.
It's the exploit that lets you apply the silence instantly instead of having to set the beacon and then teleport to it later.


This is comedy gold, no wonder why this game is dying

I'll just chime in and say GameInSky said everything already, but nooooo, let's not nerf what's REALLY *removed* on sentry and instead focus on the most balanced part of his kit.

Balance subforum : electric boogaloo episode 1

Black Hole Sun has been getting nerfs since Sentry came out.

It already has counter-play up the ass because of how telegraphed it is, how long it takes the shot to get anywhere past Sentry's face, and how it's effectiveness is highly dependent on skilled play from Sentry (countering enemy burst and then landing it) or having teammates that can capitalize on it. Where exactly is the need to nerf it again? How can you do so in a way that doesn't completely neuter its effectiveness?

Silence ordinarily should be a valid way of dealing with the 'nauts that can use their abilities to flat-out ignore Sentry's primary contribution to most teams. It's potency is justified because ordinarily it would require a lot of skill to land on your target.

An exploit that lets you double-tap to apply it instantly is a problem. It's not currently a large problem, but it's one that has the potential to get a lot worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Camkitsune wrote:
[Black Hole Sun] already has counter-play up the ass...

Debatable.

Camkitsune wrote:
...how telegraphed it is...

So long as Sentry has the shot pre-loaded, which isn't really that much of a penalty, it has precisely zero telegraphing beyond the muzzle glow. It fires on demand with no animation and can be detonated in the next frame to instantly apply its effects.

That's the opposite of telegraphed. You do lose out on the potential damage, but that pales in comparison to how powerful an effect the gravity is. Any extra damage at that point is gilding the lily, in my opinion.

Camkitsune wrote:
...how long it takes the shot to get anywhere past Sentry's face...

See above, especially in conjunction with telebursting.

Camkitsune wrote:
...and how it's effectiveness is highly dependent on skilled play from Sentry (countering enemy burst and then landing it) or having teammates that can capitalize on it.

Crowd control effects, in any game and by definition, don't create value in and of themselves (as damage does). They enable damage, so the ability to follow-up on them isn't a point of balance.

Teamwork itself can't be overpowered.

For teleburst, couldn't we just move the damage pulse to the beacon's creation, rather than its consumption? That way, Sentry could still use it offensively as he does now (even more so, as preemptive damage wouldn't counter it anymore), but he could then teleport to it after the matter, if he wanted.

Tweak the damage and silence a little bit to accommodate the new lack of a damage counter, and spice up the beacon's teleporting powers. Give it some interesting utility.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Camkitsune wrote:
The other part of it - the one where you can get a giant AoE burst of damage with added Silence by finding a way to roll up to enemies without them seeing you and ganking them with it - Stealth Orb, anyone? - is not something that has a lot of tactical depth to it, and does not have a lot of fun counter-play options. Unless we're using very different definitions of the word 'tactical'.

This is a really big crapshoot of an excuse, lol. "without them seeing you" - what? Since when does sentry have stealth? You want everything to have counterplay yet there's so, so many bigger offenders if you let that line of thinking get to you. What about dash characters? How the hell do I counterplay penny pounce when it stuns me and I can't retaliate? Oh right, I position myself to where pounce isn't as threatening and get better at the game as a result. It feels like you'd be the sort of person to complain about a nibbs in a hidden area one shotting someone in a second as they go in, because it falls under the "I just couldn't retaliate because I got outplayed" category.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:28 pm 
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What, again? I mean we have already discussed some Sentry changes during 4.7 beta and almost nothing of that was applied. I doubt this thread will make the difference.

Ok, for BHS I proposed gravity charging as it goes for damage. The main goal is to stimulate Sentry to be an actual tank for a team. If minimum charge would set gravity pull for only 10% of maximum power, there should be no difficulty escaping from it even without boots, since that would be like a 10% slow kind of obstacle. So Sentry either tries luring out enemy damage on him (and be good) or uses BHS for some area denial and low damage. No more 'hold the minimum charge forever, pull the opponent when it comes and let teammates have their time' tactics.

Silence beacon? Have no problem with it myself. But I agree with Camkitsune on case teleport shouldn't be just another close range damage ability. Yes, all abilities in Awesomenauts deal damage that way or another, but tp itself is more a maneuver ability, letting Sentry himself to escape or deny escape for others or even provide information. You know, tactics. Dealing instant teleburst is cheap, especially in lag-dependant game like this. My opinion - if you want applying damage or silence via thematically non-combat ability, that shouldn't be too easy. 1 second of delay between setting and teleporting should be fair enough.

Landminer? What's with it? As I remember, stationary mines got halved damage which improved Sentry's active playstyle. Is it still more of a problem than Rae with pierce and range defending the turret?


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 Post subject: Re: Sentry's Silence Problem
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:12 pm 
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sentry always op


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