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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:27 pm 
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+1 to stuns during dash, since other cc already applies and she's *way* too slippery without being punished as it is. It would make fighting her a little more fair so you can actually stop her with some additional nauts, without crippling her so badly that she would have no recovery (since she still has dashes ofc).

Sam! wrote:
Why does blowfish nozzle even exist anyway? Giving sentry AA to a fast dash character to enable them to area deny, kite and wall off pushes all at once. Why tho?


Tbf she already area denies and dmgs well with clone, so it's moreover just a nuisance compared to sentry AA; that being said, wouldn't be opposed to hearing suggestions to change blowfish, though I have no good ones of my own for her atm.

+1 to slevens as well, *PLEASE* don't start making more nauts have mandatory upgrades; it's better to just change their base values or mechanics directly than require them to purchase upgrades, and a lot of nauts struggle with this just due to how severe their nerf cycles have been over time. Again, her aa with blowfish is moreover just, as slevens put it, "random damage you have to walk through". Nerfing the duration to 1.5s would be a good start actually, but ultimately it should probably be changed to better fit her character rather than be another area denial annoyance at her disposal.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:21 am 
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imo, a naut with 3 dashes loaded into one ability should have been sent back to the drawing board before it ever went into beta testing; the fact that she not only went into but survived beta testing with an option for a fourth is a bit of a sad commentary on Ronimo's understanding of their game (or care for it).

Lets take a trip back in time to when Awesomenauts first gets released. There are a lot of strong abilities among the cast, but what are clear standouts?

Leon's tongue - displaces others and inflicts damage
Froggy's dash - displaces self and inflicts damage and CC

There are of course other abilities that are strong in various respects, but it is rapidly established among players in the know that the kinds of abilities to truly fear when they are put into the hands of good players are the abilities that rapidly allow the player to alter their position or the position of their opponents in manner that isn't telegraphed ahead of time and don't have much "recovery time", if any.

Those kinds of abilities can be strong or weak in damage terms without it making much of a difference. You could have Sentry's Black Hole Sun do negative damage (give health back) at the end of its duration without it much affecting Sentry's power level in organized play - it lasts just long enough for Sentry's team to secure a kill on whatever you catch with it in short order before it ever actually expires 90% of the time (of course I'm not saying this is a change we should make - it would certainly hurt his pub/soloQ play and wouldn't feel rewarding in general).

Flash forward a bit, and there have been some good changes made. BKM is introduced as a tool for counterplay against forced displacement. It may be strange to think of them in these terms at first, but slows snares and stuns are still a form of "forced displacement" in the long term - you're preventing someone from being where they want to be and forcing them to be closer to where they don't want to be, both now and in the future (compared to where they would have been).

All of this might sound obvious (and it should, if you've played for any reasonable length of time), so as I say its a bit disappointing that anyone ever thought a naut with 3-4 dashes would be a good idea. BKM exists as an option to counter forced displacement - there is no equivalent globally-available counterplay for reducing the effectiveness of spammable self-displacement.

For comparison's sake, some nauts have zero self-displacement, and the ones that do have it have one instance of it per ability, paired with some auxiliary benefits like damage, knockback, damage reduction, etc.

What is the solution? I submit for your consideration that number adjustments will not suffice. Dizzy needs a functional rework from the ground up. I would say something like, "well, if Awesomenauts had a pick/counter-pick system like Dota 2 then Dizzy would be ok", but the simple fact is that it doesn't, and she's not. I don't see a super-pressing need to give it one just for her sake, either - and its arguable that since this a 3v3 game, the reduced degrees of freedom would still make a naut as *polarizing* (lets go with that) as her a net negative regardless.

So here's a better idea (one among potentially very many). We reuse all of her current graphical assets, but in a way that doesn't break games wide open:

Each of her skills is a single dash - but the place that she dashes from leaves a water clone behind her (kind of like an afterimage from having moved so suddendly). One of these dash-clones does a minor radial knockback, the other does a minor radial gravity/pull. If we want to get crazy and improve "game diversity" or whatever (that some people seem to care so much about) we can even throw in some brand new 'confusion' CC instead that inflicts a 'confusion' status effect, reversing left/right and up/down and main ability buttons for a certain length of time.

There's actually a lot of good design space to work with in her case (and a lot of potentially great fixes) but it should probably be utilized sooner rather than later.

The main thrust of it is that she should not have 3 (or more) dashes, across all skills. Two is enough to make her top-tier, anything past that is pretty much definitively game-breaking and should have been recognized as such from day zero of her development. That's about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Hell of a necro, but hey the balance forums needed some life.

See here's the thing. Reworks are almost impossible to make happen at this point. You can toss in "bad game design" here and imbalanced there, but the only change you can hope to make happen in any capacity is a numbers change in the games current state of development. Reworks come with backlash, and Ronimo doesn't like that sorta thing so when they attempted a bunch of them (Misguided as they were at the time) they instead revoked all of them. Closest thing we got to something of that level of rework was Yoolip Ranged AA, but it was undercooked and instead of making it work we also backtracked there.

Only rework-ish thing that got in was just copy-pasted from sequence-breaker so I'm not confident in much when it comes to Ronimo and how they treat reworks at all.

Just make her work under the current numbers. She's strong yes, but there are ways to make her more fair without completely changing the character to this degree.

Relating old Nauts design to just Dizzy doesn't really work btw. Lots of the newer designs don't follow how the old characters did in general, but that's a different discussion altogether.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:59 am 
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Yeah, I don't know why I'm bothering on these dead forums for this largely dead/dying game.

I recall the attempted reworks you mentioned, and you're probably not wrong on the point that what I'm asking for won't happen. If I remember correctly the last attempt at a rework came with an implementation of "ranged Derpl traps" that somehow managed to not add any activity to his playstyle while taking away one of the only escape measures the character had. Again, Ronimo not understanding their own game; what makes abilities good and what makes them trash.

It isn't enough to say that comparisons with previously existing nauts "don't work" for balance discussion purposes, however. Nauts should be different from one another, at the very least in the sense of having different fundamental mechanical resource management - comparing Ted's ammo to Gnaw's parts to Penny's charges to Nibb's frenzy stacks reveals subtle differences that come through in gameplay despite their on-paper similarities. These subtle differences are still large enough to have positive impact on the "diversity" and fun of the game as a whole.

What demonstrates a problem, however, is that Ronimo thought that Froggy G's dash would be a good baseline ability for doing something similar. The critical and qualitative difference is, of course, that dashing is a self-displacement ability - and in a 2D platforming game, that is a fundamentally different kind of resource than anything in any of her precursor's kits.

In offering this opinion, I understand that Ronimo doesn't want to make "extra" work for themselves. If its possible to make a change, but reuse all of the same graphics and sound assets as before, by all means. The changes don't have to be unnecessarily massive in workload terms.

But they should address the problem that was the motivation for the change to begin with. That's probably why they won't happen - because that would require Ronimo to have a greater understanding of the nuances of their game than they have yet demonstrated. If the last wave of reworks had added activity and options to Derpl's kit rather than adding zero activity and removing options, that change might have stuck (to say nothing about the wholly unnecessary Yuri changes that accompanied them).

Would there still have been some backlash? Probably from some corners, and probably just from people nostalgic about the things that went. But it wouldn't have been overwhelming, because the changes would have been good as opposed to terrible. Even after the obligatory complaints about the things that were removed, there would be enough positive reception for the (more critical) things that were added, it wouldn't matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:57 am 
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fictionarious wrote:
It isn't enough to say that comparisons with previously existing nauts "don't work" for balance discussion purposes, however. Nauts should be different from one another, at the very least in the sense of having different fundamental mechanical resource management - comparing Ted's ammo to Gnaw's parts to Penny's charges to Nibb's frenzy stacks reveals subtle differences that come through in gameplay despite their on-paper similarities. These subtle differences are still large enough to have positive impact on the "diversity" and fun of the game as a whole.

I'd be careful with this line of reasoning.

Yes, diversity of playstyles does make a game more... well, diverse, but diversity for its own sake shouldn't be the driving point of ability design. By all means, come up with ideas that are varied and that bring a new element of gameplay to the table, but don't force arbitrary mechanics on abilities where they really don't fit.

I, for example, have never really thought that Penny's charges add any meaningful depth to her design. Yes, it's an additional system that must be accounted for and that is an inherently skillful thing, but I think she'd be just as complex—and play just the same—without relying on charges.

fictionarious wrote:
What demonstrates a problem, however, is that Ronimo thought that Froggy G's dash would be a good baseline ability for doing something similar. The critical and qualitative difference is, of course, that dashing is a self-displacement ability - and in a 2D platforming game, that is a fundamentally different kind of resource than anything in any of her precursor's kits.

This point loses itself. Are you saying that, because dashing is displacement (and because displacement is so powerful), resource management won't ever work with it, in the sense that one dash will always be too little a displacement, but chaining three together will always be too much?

If so, I agree.

fictionarious wrote:
In offering this opinion, I understand that Ronimo doesn't want to make "extra" work for themselves. If its possible to make a change, but reuse all of the same graphics and sound assets as before, by all means. The changes don't have to be unnecessarily massive in workload terms.

Any amount of Awesomenauts work is too much at this point.

You might think that I'm joking; you would be wrong.

fictionarious wrote:
But they should address the problem that was the motivation for the change to begin with. That's probably why they won't happen - because that would require Ronimo to have a greater understanding of the nuances of their game than they have yet demonstrated. If the last wave of reworks had added activity and options to Derpl's kit rather than adding zero activity and removing options, that change might have stuck (to say nothing about the wholly unnecessary Yuri changes that accompanied them).

You should really give Ronimo credit for at least trying to branch out by taking balance into their own hands.

I'm joking, of course. They're the developers. While everyone on these forums appreciates that veteran player input is valuable, Ronimo is supposed to be some guiding force behind changes. They're not—they just implement the changes.

It's all on its head.

fictionarious wrote:
Would there still have been some backlash? Probably from some corners, and probably just from people nostalgic about the things that went. But it wouldn't have been overwhelming, because the changes would have been good as opposed to terrible. Even after the obligatory complaints about the things that were removed, there would be enough positive reception for the (more critical) things that were added, it wouldn't matter.

People want what they have and hate what they don't.

"Change" is a dirty word in MOBAs. Any developer that tries to appease their playerbase by avoiding change is absolutely guaranteed to fail—there are no exceptions to that rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:11 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
This point loses itself. Are you saying that, because dashing is displacement (and because displacement is so powerful), resource management won't ever work with it, in the sense that one dash will always be too little a displacement, but chaining three together will always be too much?

If so, I agree.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say it loses itself, but then go on to agree with it. To elaborate a little bit further, what I mean is - consider two different hypothetical scenarios. In one scenario, you have a Naut with a displacement ability that effectively moves them an entire screen's distance (call this X distance) in one press. In another scenario, you have a naut using a 8-charge system that takes them X/8 distance at the same rate of speed.

The latter naut is more powerful because they have more control over their relative positioning than the former naut (relative to both map objectives and other players). Yeah the former can go a really long distance if they want, but they have to commit to it, even if their potential maximum is the same.

Anyway, I agreed with basically everything else you just said so much that I made part of it my signature.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about Dizzy.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Even if you give this naut 1hp she can still get away half the time. I suggest some new nerfs like, revert the dash damage back or delete dizzy.

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