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 Post subject: Re: [You should read this]Before You Make a Thread on Balanc
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:36 pm 
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daniel_brony wrote:
Tushie Cushie wrote:
You can't exactly argue with good ideas, few posts of "I agree" and the thread dies off.

Bad ideas and bad threads live forever, however.


This is way to true :shrug:


So sickeningly true :|

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 Post subject: Re: [You should read this]Before You Make a Thread on Balanc
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Hey guys, what if we stop to answer to bad threads?
This place is starting to get full of the most retard ideas and all good threads are buried under "Gnaw weeds is op nerf plz" and "I can't jump over Yuri's mines" threads...

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 Post subject: Re: [You should read this]Before You Make a Thread on Balanc
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:27 pm 
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NOBODY CARES ABOUT THIS THREAD IT SEEMS, NOBODY CARES!

Come one, Sing-along!

NO-BO-DY CARES AT ALL!


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 Post subject: Re: [You should read this]Before You Make a Thread on Balanc
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:01 pm 
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MonkeyCheez3K wrote:
NOBODY CARES ABOUT THIS THREAD IT SEEMS, NOBODY CARES!

Come one, Sing-along!

NO-BO-DY CARES AT ALL!

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 Post subject: Re: [You should read this]Before You Make a Thread on Balanc
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:40 am 
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Rules 3 and 4 needs to be read repeatedly by everyone, seriously. Before making a topic it should scream in bold red text:

3. Is this an actual issue, or am I just angry about losing against a better player?

4. How many games/hours have I played? Could not having enough experience in the game be clouding how I perceive the issue?


Untill the end of time, then you may post a new topic in balance.

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 Post subject: Re: [READ FIRST!] Before posting a thread on balance
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:11 am 
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Let's look at the front page of balance:

"Nerf Leon bot"

"Nerf Yuri heal"

"Nerf insignificant blockage by weeds"

"Nerf Gnaw's wards"

"Make Thunder Striker move siege Derpl"

What in the actual hell.

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 Post subject: Re: [READ FIRST!] Before posting a thread on balance
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:55 pm 
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TrentFreeze38 wrote:
Let's look at the front page of balance:

"Nerf Leon bot"

"Nerf Yuri heal"

"Nerf insignificant blockage by weeds"

"Nerf Gnaw's wards"

"Make Thunder Striker move siege Derpl"

What in the actual hell.


Lol leon's clone is a joke now.
Yuri's heal is balanced
Weeds have always blocked things, why is it suddenly an issue?
Nerf gnaw's weeds again, srs this problem is only in pubs/ among novices.
Coco's ball? Lol that would be most unbalanced thing ever if siege derpl could be moved with cc.

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Last edited by RiceMaster on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [READ FIRST!] Before posting a thread on balance
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Also, please read this and take this into account as well.

I could probably name that thread "[READ FIRST!] Before replying to a post on balance" :ayla:

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TigerKirby215 thread in a nutshell: people arguing over minuscule things and not the actual topic at hand.

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Wow, you actually managed to get a topic kicked out of the Balance section.


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 Post subject: Re: [READ FIRST!] Before posting a thread on balance
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:20 am 
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I decided to write a more detailed version of the first post.
Take whatever you want from this.


Gameinsky wrote:
First of all, you should know the different things that you'd want to strive for on every naut:
* There's skill floor
* Skill ceiling/versatility of the upgrades
* Fun factor

All three are important.
They kind of blend together a bit but they're still separate things.

For skill floor:
I believe that the higher the risk, the higher the reward should be (skill floor). Nauts with a lot of damage need heavy drawbacks so that you can't just rack up kills left and right.
The best example is derpl: You have a big burst and very high DPS. You are however a sitting duck open to ganks if you don't watch out tho. Even in higher play when you drop through platforms to bomb out of nowhere, you are predictable.

Skill ceiling:
The higher the versatility of the upgrades AND the skill ceiling, the more diverse the naut can be played as. This gives him/her good replay-ability and doesn't make every game the same.
A good example on that is coco and lonestar: All the upgrades are more or less equally viable. Some combinations don't work, but there's no upgrade you would say "hah, nobody uses that" to. It's a bit less on coco now since patch 1.27 (Coco had pretty much perfect versatility before that)

Fun factor:
Self explanatory. While mechanically it's the least important, it's a big factor in your game. After all, it's a game. We play games to have fun. If you play simply to balance, I could kindly suggest you to go play on a seesaw.
However, it's firmly bonded together to skill ceiling and skill floor. Skill floor too low? Naut is not fun to fight against. Skill floor too high? Naut is not fun to play as.
A big part of it also depends on the meta which is why it's so hard to balance the fun factor. Sadly it's the most important for keeping your playerbase.


Role of the naut:
A naut should keep its role thorough the balance suggestions. Turning every naut into a brawler is a way to fix the game, but will make it boring.
When trying to balance a naut a big effort has to be made to keep the nauts role. Mechanical changes should only be made to change the height of the skill floor and ceiling.
Adding/removing a weakness can be done, but should considdered with caution as it could quickly ruin the naut.
A good example is gnaw in 2.1: His plants got nerfed and his spit became bursty. This made brawler gnaw very good, but nerfed what gnaw was essential at: area denial, harass and poke.
It made him more like the other nauts and that's not a good thing. You could just as well play lonestar who has similar mechanics and is more powerful.
More important is to keep what the naut is good at, good. If an ability a naut is in too good, a better alternative is to increase the naut's weaknesses and thus raising the skill floor.


I do believe that certain things should be avoided:
* One-man wombo combos.
* An upgrade that counters an entire part or an entire ability. UNLESS it has a major drawback (like CC shield on raelynn only works during the snipe; when she stands still for a short period of time).
* Crutches. (There's only one crutch in the game atm, luckily: fake family pictures)
* 3 Stacking damage items or 2 non-damage stacking items.

One man wombo combos should be self explanatory: I should feel justified for dying. If I died, I did somethings stupid. Or should have seen it coming AND take precautions.
Not because the other naut has the power to kill me about anywhere on the map after the slightest misstep. Or if the naut has no ways to be countered.

Countering serves to make the give the game depth, which is good. However upgrades should NOT have the power to render nauts useless. (CC immunity, RBAY and deflect)
It removes the fun out of the game for the people trying to play agaisnt those upgrades. And once again you don't feel justified for losing, since you have lost from the moment the upgrade was bought. (Believe it or not, RBAY is the least bad out of the three)

Crutches are bad and should feel bad. Every upgrade should be evenly good; crutches just serve to lower the skill floor and offer nothing else.
(Definition of crutch: An ability that makes the game easier without adding anything more to it. It's therefor useless for good players as they have better choices)

Stacking upgrades is the least of the problems, but still a problem regardless.
I stand by the opinion there should only be 2 damage upgrades on ABILITIES (autoattack is fine). They narrow down the diversity of the upgrades seen how superior damage upgrades are over everything else. (The only exception to this is dynamite and ball lightning)
Doublestacking non-damage upgrades is bad for the entirely opposite reason: they make the upgrade less worth taking. You're wasting a slot that would make your attack more versatile, or damage. And still tone down the variety of the upgrades.




When you're going to balance a skill the following steps should be taken to ensure an accurate nerf/buff is done.


1. Determine if said skill is OP/UP or is simply being QQ'd about

Argumentation should always be provided when balancing.
Am I good at the game?
Have I tried to adapt my strategy when facing/using said naut/upgrade?
Have I tried to make use of my team to take care of the problem? (it's a team game after all)
Is it a problem on/against the majority of the nauts?

If the answer to at least 3 questions is "yes", then there's a very big chance that the said upgrade/skill is actually OP. And you can go on with the next step:


2. Structurise the big picture

What is the said naut's weaknesses?
What are his roles?
How is the naut meant to be played?

You need to know what the naut is supposed to play like, that way you don't mechanically break the naut when balancing.
The initial purpose of a skill should be its main point.
Everything else is secondary and should be added in as upgrades to give the skill more versatility.
However, upgrades that conflict with the main purpose of the skill should be avoided. Unless they change the way the skill is used while keeping the main use of the skill itself intact.
A good example for this would be gnome. Gnome is meant as a ranged burst poke on an initiating skill. It shouldn't hurt the guy that's being initiated, since that conflicts with the fact that it's an initation.
It can still be used as a separate attack to add variation on skolldir. That without changing the base skill.

Seeing the big picture also makes it easier to troubleshoot the problem and make changes in the right direction.
Don't see the upgrade on its own. See it in combination of the rest of what the naut has to offer. And possibly even its opponents.
There's two combinations of roles that shouldn't exist: Brawler support and Initiator and brawler.
Brawler support is an oxymoron. If a naut is support he should have primarily defencive damaging abilities (Genji has droidclear AA, Yuri has area denial mines, voltar has defencive drones etc.). A brawler can have support upgrades usually without it being a problem. As long as there's only 1-2 of them.
Initiator and brawler is a dangerous combo that will always be OP. It's in fact a one-man wombo combo. It works in other mobas, but awesomenauts is too fastpaced for it to work here.
high damage on initiator skills should therefor be avoided.


3. Proposal of changes

This depends from case to case. Every kind of change should be done based on where the problem comes from.

When the upgrade simply scales badly, it should recieve price or value changes.
Either by adding/removing a stage, simply changing the price or change the damage/time values etc.

If the upgrade has too much endgame power, a stage could be removed or number changes can be made. If you want to make the naut a carry (or if he already is) you can make his lategame harder to attain. (Not on a support!)

If a utility is very spammable for what it does, the cooldown/charge time should be increased. (Apply babysteps here!)

An upgrade should only be removed if it's counterintuitive to the naut's design, is just broken in a way it can't be fixed, is a very specific counter to something else or is a third variation of damage on the same SKILL. (Skill =/= autoattack)

You usually don't want to have 2 stacking upgrades that are not damage because they won't stand out from the rest of the upgrades or they will end up simply being op.

If the skill itself is imbalanced, indirect changes can be made to higher/lower skill floor.
Those can be speed changes, health changes, jump changes or animation changes.

If a certain CC is over/underwhelming then either the duration or the percentage should be changed .


4. Testing

Have the changes worked?
If yes: good!
If no: Revert the changes and try something else. (I can't stress out enough how important reverting the change first is important.)



How many changes should a naut recieve?

The ideal amount of characters being focused on every patch IMO would be 3.
I'd say about 2 major changes for the nauts being focused on, max 2-3 for minor balancing. A major change would be a change that affects more than 2 upgrades/the naut itself.
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT make more than two separate changes to the same upgrade row (which also includes the base upgrade row). (basically apply babysteps here)
Changes should not be seen individually, always in group. If a group of changes is made to fix a single issue it should be seen as one big change.
Big changes should also be reserved for the focused nauts.

Which nauts to focus on?
Usually the most broken, least reliable or most OP nauts should be focused on.
Importancy comes from how much of the game's experience is ruined by their current state.

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 Post subject: Re: [READ FIRST!] Before posting a thread on balance
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:27 am 
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Gameinsky wrote:
I decided to write a more detailed version of the first post.
Take whatever you want from this.


Gameinsky wrote:
First of all, you should know the different things that you'd want to strive for on every naut:
* There's skill floor
* Skill ceiling/versatility of the upgrades
* Fun factor

All three are important.
They kind of blend together a bit but they're still separate things.

For skill floor:
I believe that the higher the risk, the higher the reward should be (skill floor). Nauts with a lot of damage need heavy drawbacks so that you can't just rack up kills left and right.
The best example is derpl: You have a big burst and very high DPS. You are however a sitting duck open to ganks if you don't watch out tho. Even in higher play when you drop through platforms to bomb out of nowhere, you are predictable.

Skill ceiling:
The higher the versatility of the upgrades AND the skill ceiling, the more diverse the naut can be played as. This gives him/her good replay-ability and doesn't make every game the same.
A good example on that is coco and lonestar: All the upgrades are more or less equally viable. Some combinations don't work, but there's no upgrade you would say "hah, nobody uses that" to. It's a bit less on coco now since patch 1.27 (Coco had pretty much perfect versatility before that)

Fun factor:
Self explanatory. While mechanically it's the least important, it's a big factor in your game. After all, it's a game. We play games to have fun. If you play simply to balance, I could kindly suggest you to go play on a seesaw.
However, it's firmly bonded together to skill ceiling and skill floor. Skill floor too low? Naut is not fun to fight against. Skill floor too high? Naut is not fun to play as.
A big part of it also depends on the meta which is why it's so hard to balance the fun factor. Sadly it's the most important for keeping your playerbase.


Role of the naut:
A naut should keep its role thorough the balance suggestions. Turning every naut into a brawler is a way to fix the game, but will make it boring.
When trying to balance a naut a big effort has to be made to keep the nauts role. Mechanical changes should only be made to change the height of the skill floor and ceiling.
Adding/removing a weakness can be done, but should considdered with caution as it could quickly ruin the naut.
A good example is gnaw in 2.1: His plants got nerfed and his spit became bursty. This made brawler gnaw very good, but nerfed what gnaw was essential at: area denial, harass and poke.
It made him more like the other nauts and that's not a good thing. You could just as well play lonestar who has similar mechanics and is more powerful.
More important is to keep what the naut is good at, good. If an ability a naut is in too good, a better alternative is to increase the naut's weaknesses and thus raising the skill floor.


I do believe that certain things should be avoided:
* One-man wombo combos.
* An upgrade that counters an entire part or an entire ability. UNLESS it has a major drawback (like CC shield on raelynn only works during the snipe; when she stands still for a short period of time).
* Crutches. (There's only one crutch in the game atm, luckily: fake family pictures)
* 3 Stacking damage items or 2 non-damage stacking items.

One man wombo combos should be self explanatory: I should feel justified for dying. If I died, I did somethings stupid. Or should have seen it coming AND take precautions.
Not because the other naut has the power to kill me about anywhere on the map after the slightest misstep. Or if the naut has no ways to be countered.

Countering serves to make the give the game depth, which is good. However upgrades should NOT have the power to render nauts useless. (CC immunity, RBAY and deflect)
It removes the fun out of the game for the people trying to play agaisnt those upgrades. And once again you don't feel justified for losing, since you have lost from the moment the upgrade was bought. (Believe it or not, RBAY is the least bad out of the three)

Crutches are bad and should feel bad. Every upgrade should be evenly good; crutches just serve to lower the skill floor and offer nothing else.
(Definition of crutch: An ability that makes the game easier without adding anything more to it. It's therefor useless for good players as they have better choices)

Stacking upgrades is the least of the problems, but still a problem regardless.
I stand by the opinion there should only be 2 damage upgrades on ABILITIES (autoattack is fine). They narrow down the diversity of the upgrades seen how superior damage upgrades are over everything else. (The only exception to this is dynamite and ball lightning)
Doublestacking non-damage upgrades is bad for the entirely opposite reason: they make the upgrade less worth taking. You're wasting a slot that would make your attack more versatile, or damage. And still tone down the variety of the upgrades.




When you're going to balance a skill the following steps should be taken to ensure an accurate nerf/buff is done.


1. Determine if said skill is OP/UP or is simply being QQ'd about

Argumentation should always be provided when balancing.
Am I good at the game?
Have I tried to adapt my strategy when facing/using said naut/upgrade?
Have I tried to make use of my team to take care of the problem? (it's a team game after all)
Is it a problem on/against the majority of the nauts?

If the answer to at least 3 questions is "yes", then there's a very big chance that the said upgrade/skill is actually OP. And you can go on with the next step:


2. Structurise the big picture

What is the said naut's weaknesses?
What are his roles?
How is the naut meant to be played?

You need to know what the naut is supposed to play like, that way you don't mechanically break the naut when balancing.
The initial purpose of a skill should be its main point.
Everything else is secondary and should be added in as upgrades to give the skill more versatility.
However, upgrades that conflict with the main purpose of the skill should be avoided. Unless they change the way the skill is used while keeping the main use of the skill itself intact.
A good example for this would be gnome. Gnome is meant as a ranged burst poke on an initiating skill. It shouldn't hurt the guy that's being initiated, since that conflicts with the fact that it's an initation.
It can still be used as a separate attack to add variation on skolldir. That without changing the base skill.

Seeing the big picture also makes it easier to troubleshoot the problem and make changes in the right direction.
Don't see the upgrade on its own. See it in combination of the rest of what the naut has to offer. And possibly even its opponents.
There's two combinations of roles that shouldn't exist: Brawler support and Initiator and brawler.
Brawler support is an oxymoron. If a naut is support he should have primarily defencive damaging abilities (Genji has droidclear AA, Yuri has area denial mines, voltar has defencive drones etc.). A brawler can have support upgrades usually without it being a problem. As long as there's only 1-2 of them.
Initiator and brawler is a dangerous combo that will always be OP. It's in fact a one-man wombo combo. It works in other mobas, but awesomenauts is too fastpaced for it to work here.
high damage on initiator skills should therefor be avoided.


3. Proposal of changes

This depends from case to case. Every kind of change should be done based on where the problem comes from.

When the upgrade simply scales badly, it should recieve price or value changes.
Either by adding/removing a stage, simply changing the price or change the damage/time values etc.

If the upgrade has too much endgame power, a stage could be removed or number changes can be made. If you want to make the naut a carry (or if he already is) you can make his lategame harder to attain. (Not on a support!)

If a utility is very spammable for what it does, the cooldown/charge time should be increased. (Apply babysteps here!)

An upgrade should only be removed if it's counterintuitive to the naut's design, is just broken in a way it can't be fixed, is a very specific counter to something else or is a third variation of damage on the same SKILL. (Skill =/= autoattack)

You usually don't want to have 2 stacking upgrades that are not damage because they won't stand out from the rest of the upgrades or they will end up simply being op.

If the skill itself is imbalanced, indirect changes can be made to higher/lower skill floor.
Those can be speed changes, health changes, jump changes or animation changes.

If a certain CC is over/underwhelming then either the duration or the percentage should be changed .


4. Testing

Have the changes worked?
If yes: good!
If no: Revert the changes and try something else. (I can't stress out enough how important reverting the change first is important.)



How many changes should a naut recieve?

The ideal amount of characters being focused on every patch IMO would be 3.
I'd say about 2 major changes for the nauts being focused on, max 2-3 for minor balancing. A major change would be a change that affects more than 2 upgrades/the naut itself.
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT make more than two separate changes to the same upgrade row (which also includes the base upgrade row). (basically apply babysteps here)
Changes should not be seen individually, always in group. If a group of changes is made to fix a single issue it should be seen as one big change.
Big changes should also be reserved for the focused nauts.

Which nauts to focus on?
Usually the most broken, least reliable or most OP nauts should be focused on.
Importancy comes from how much of the game's experience is ruined by their current state.


:clap:
This deserves to be put in the OP.

Also people are not reading this thread enough.
Myself included, to be honest.

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