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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:52 pm 
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What does moderating suggestions actually entail? Like do these people have the ability to say "I think that idea is dumb let's remove it from the list" or "This character is fine despite being banned like every single time in the first 4 bans in comp". If moderating entails that then I think only high hour playtimes and competitive players should be among moderators.

Sorry but if for some periods we get someone in league 4- who focuses so hard on how ayla stomps them every game and then has the power to push hard for ayla nerfs without properly identifying her problems then that can give rise to bad changes.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:58 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
What does moderating suggestions actually entail? Like do these people have the ability to say "I think that idea is dumb let's remove it from the list" or "This character is fine despite being banned like every single time in the first 4 bans in comp". If moderating entails that then I think only high hour playtimes and competitive players should be among moderators.

Sorry but if for some periods we get someone in league 4- who focuses so hard on how ayla stomps them every game and then has the power to push hard for ayla nerfs without properly identifying her problems then that can give rise to bad changes.


While I am not entirely sure what the moderation entails, the point is that all 4 people + doppel and Jasper are constantly in contact and all try to prevent eachother from going overboard on things.

It's unlikely that all 6 will share the same faulty opinion. So hopefully it should be a self-regulated process.

I understand your concern though.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:17 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
What does moderating suggestions actually entail? Like do these people have the ability to say "I think that idea is dumb let's remove it from the list" or "This character is fine despite being banned like every single time in the first 4 bans in comp". If moderating entails that then I think only high hour playtimes and competitive players should be among moderators.

Sorry but if for some periods we get someone in league 4- who focuses so hard on how ayla stomps them every game and then has the power to push hard for ayla nerfs without properly identifying her problems then that can give rise to bad changes.


Moderating suggestions entail that every suggestion are opened to discuss, and after discussing around them, the moderation put them on clear in the doc to archive them.
That's what I meant when I said that you could create related thread to the doc with the [GDOC] tag, in order to be able to keep a better track on the discuss (since google discuss should be meant for little/medium change, and threads for bigger change).

(this response is for the first paragraph).

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
who are the moderators?


Devmon, Gameinsky, ┌ᾮ┘ and eddster.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:23 pm 
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TLDR : you are free to put your suggestion into the doc, since they are supposed to be open to changes.

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Dominik305 wrote:
people who only play meta in any game should be gunned down at the street and skinned alive


CraftedNightmare wrote:
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Doppelganger wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:14 pm 
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The way I think it should be done, balance doc's should be limited to high tier competitive players and general high hour players that are actually good (so no 3k hour l4's please) this way the people who monitor and discuss have insight to how said characters works in a competitive environment as well as in pubs.

At most 8 people in the doc, 4-6 competitive players and 2-4 GOOD pub players who also have decent insight and don't only play one character.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:25 pm 
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I agree with the notion that if your going to do a balance document like this, it should be limited to the higher tier players. I'm sorry, but even when I go off on a random ramble I'm still talking more sense than some of the people on this forum, which is pretty sad.

Doppelganger wrote:
TLDR : you are free to put your suggestion into the doc, since they are supposed to be open to changes.

So basically, rather than make a forum topic, people will just dump it in the document which will end up in a huge list of changes to pretty much every naut.

If you insist on doing things this way, then can we just have SOME focus on what nauts are changing next patch from Ronimo and not try to balance the entire cast at once, doing everything half *d once again? Like all Skoll needs is to lose deflect, Penny just needs small damage buffs to her upgrades, Clunk/Coco/Frog are not an urgent issue etc. Here's betting all of them will get a decent list of changes though, and Scoop/Ksenia/Ayla will a similar amount of stat nerfs (coz nerfing stats balanced Penny) and remain completely braindead to play but too low in stats to do anything in a game. Like, if your going to let anybody comment, you need to keep the list of nauts you can suggest changes for shorter so this doc doesn't get out of hand.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:32 pm 
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This is most likely not going to work and depends heavily on who moderates the thing. If you got people who remove people's suggestions because they doesn't like them, as has happened in a previous past balance doc *COUGH*, then you're going to have a lot of problems.

You also got the issue of mods focusing purely on the character's current state of balance and ignoring build diversity and enjoyment completely, which can result in heavy knee jerking over non-meta changes. Lonestar's AA upgrade buff and Rigged Casino Games buff being two examples of this case with currently selected mods, Eddster and ┌ᾮ┘ within previous public balance docs, if my memory serves me correctly. I can't speak from personal experience on the other mods however, although I heard some troubling things from their initial discussions such as Codfather being "broken".

Honestly though, I find the notion of blinding suggesting changes to be frankly idiotic considering we already have the tools available to test changes before suggesting them to be implemented.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:32 pm 
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Basically we want betanauts back please.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:45 pm 
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I swear I'm one of the only people that thinks that general game balance has improved substantially once the changes were more publicly discussed.

More people provide more insight. Sure, a lot of it is worthless, but it's not that hard to filter out bad ideas.

It kind of is a trust thing, that's true. But everyone is biased, even good players.

And none of the changes suggested on the wall are final.

While it's impossible to predict with absolute certainty what will happen, for now we've agreed to be light on the changes.

e.g. the one skolldir change on the list will probably be his only one and was agreed by several of the people that were chosen.

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The year is 20XX. Everyone can play Awesomenauts to niki levels of perfection. All gameplay has been deemed irrelevant and matches are decided by a game of Roflnauts. All new metas are based on Roflnauts DMs.


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:04 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
I swear I'm one of the only people that thinks that general game balance has improved substantially once the changes were more publicly discussed.

That's because balance was dumpstered by the XP patch, it's hard not to improve balance when it was pretty much destroyed right before the community approch started.

Gameinsky wrote:
While it's impossible to predict with absolute certainty what will happen, for now we've agreed to be light on the changes.

Like, you can't do anything major with balance whilst you have a lot of very uncoordinated and opinionated people involved. Gnaw will literally never get fixed unless either Ronimo take full control (Voltar rework was a bit off) or a small group of players are left to draft some large ideas for him (betanauts). Small changes work fine when the nauts in question are designed and balanced relatively well and thier build varity isn't too important atm but I don't know why we need a Skoll section on the doc open to ~500+ ppl for that 1 really obvious change. However, some nauts need larger changes, and will never get them this way; ie making Yoolip/Gnaw/Scoop/Ksenia/Derpl/Ix not completely braindead and infuriating to play against. Sure, getting them at an equal power level is possible through small changes strictly speaking, but there's more to balance than that, like the enjoyment factor.

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