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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:22 pm 
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frankie3 wrote:
Get them to come talk here and to not be apprehensive to opposing opinions. I also do not want to be governed completely by competitive players or worse is that they will say anything and sheep will follow just cause without using any rationality ( Original betanauts 1.0 ). Some players like myself also didn't want to join competitive and don't want the credibility for my suggestions hurt just cause I'm not part of the group. I want my suggestions looked at from a neutral standpoint which is the respect I give to everyone. If you disagree explain why and if you agree explain why.


No one has the time to refute all the nonsense on here. + 90% of the time someone has already posted what needs to be said.

Looking at competitive players is just the easiest way to determine if someone knows the state of game balance. Because not only does it show they have competence in the game but comp players also get to experience upgrades and nauts used at their maximum potential.

Obviously it isn't ideal to have an in group out group for balance. But comp players do read the balance forums (not all of them but enough of them) so if a good idea crops up then it will feed in.

Nekomian wrote:
I don't keep up with the tournament people, but I'd like to note that it is possible that not all of them solo very often; most people in L1, to retain their positions, don't or use multiple alts.


I can assure you that they do. Tournament players don't really care about rating. If they do they only care on their main account which, as you said, they don't play many pubs on and use alts to play the game. These alts get to L1 anyway (it really is not hard to get to high League 2/League 1 if you are a good tourney player).

From the tournament players I speak to that don't do pubs they don't because they are too boring/easy to win. (Even in this case these players can still identify what is BS).

The only times there is a discrepancy between pub balance and comp balance is when something is amazing but too difficult to execute without teamwork, (something like invis cloud initiations) and times when something only works against players who lack teamwork (basically an aggro gnaw). Generally speaking the former examples are OK because high skill ceiling maneuvers are a good thing to have in the game. If these get nerfed for tournaments then that doesn't really affect pubs because no one uses them properly anyway. For the latter example Ronimo themselves are very conscious of this, and comp players know this.
I would have suggested several gnaw buffs and yoolip buffs in the past to make them more usable in competitive (although ironically now both of them are viable) but didn't because I knew it would ruin pub balance.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:41 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
frankie3 wrote:
I also do not want to be governed completely by competitive players or worse is that they will say anything and sheep will follow just cause without using any rationality ( Original betanauts 1.0 ). Some players like myself also didn't want to join competitive and don't want the credibility for my suggestions hurt just cause I'm not part of the group. I want my suggestions looked at from a neutral standpoint which is the respect I give to everyone. If you disagree explain why and if you agree explain why.


Though I'm not sure what or who this statement is directed at:

This statement is for people that blindly follows input of certain players because of their stature. It happens but If I make people aware of this then it will happen less often.

frankie3 wrote:
Get them to come talk here and to not be apprehensive to opposing opinions.



I personally think Eddster covers the competitive part of the community quite well, but maybe that's just me.


Yes eddster can cover for his experience but for more clarity I want the players who have been around since the beginning in competitive to give their opinion as well. Like Niki, Paulo, Bad Joe, Canole, Bowserslave, Whoopee, Jess and Notreallymad to name a few people who don't talk much here. Yes eddster is a good representative/player from competitive but he cannot represent every competitive player just like I can't represent every non-tourney player. Even them coming to put a +1 is enough as long as they give at least minor detail why they agree.


@Sam
Trust me I understand the pain of clearcut solutions not being implemented, soooo much it hurts my head. Though I feel we must use the opportunity to show we can come together as a whole for once and explain our points rationally without making devs/etcc feel like crap. I'm guilty of this at times I admit but I don't hold grudges and try to move on. Also my bad about paragraph quote and will make sure I do that fom now on without using my laziness as an excuse lol.

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Last edited by frankie3 on Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:42 pm 
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I agree with Sam's suggestions and also I'm really sick of the notion that comp players don't care about pub balance. blatantly untrue especially with the examples eddster gave. I myself know that I've suggested stuff almost entirely with pubs in mind and so has Sam. Funny enough, it should be two ways. Comp only players should still be cognizant about how their balance suggestions would affect pubs but pub only players should think about how their decisions affect comp. A lot of the time the caricature of comp players not caring about pub balance comes about when people talk about how changes would affect comp, as though even mentioning competitive balance is some taboo.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:32 pm 
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Either let 1 or 2 top tier comp players make all the changes or make a "betanauts" revival with 5-10 top tier players to discuss every single peanut.


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:46 pm 
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frankie3 wrote:
Yes eddster can cover for his experience but for more clarity I want the players who have been around since the beginning in competitive to give their opinion as well. Like Niki, Paulo, Bad Joe, Canole, Bowserslave, Whoopee, Jess and Notreallymad to name a few people who don't talk much here. Yes eddster is a good representative/player from competitive but he cannot represent every competitive player just like I can't represent every non-tourney player. Even them coming to put a +1 is enough as long as they give at least minor detail why they agree.


I hate to in group out group this again. But tourny players do talk to each other. We rarely make balance posts on things we individually decide is BS. There hasn't been much of a need to complain about balance until this patch really.

Also tournaments have drafts (which very much show whether some nauts are OP/UP).

The patch before Vinnie's movement change was probably the best competitive patch there has ever been. Bans were tactical and all nauts were viable.
Now the first 4 bans and first 3 picks ALWAYS have Ayla, Vinnie, Scoop and Sentry in. Followed closely by Rocco.
So the fact that there isn't a single competitive player defending these nauts from suggested nerfs is not a surprise. If me ore Sam! or niki or MrPillow or anyone makes a balance post it usually covers all the points from a comp perspective, so other comp players don't have to bother.

More niche ideas tend to not get posted until there is a general consensus that an item or naut is BS. For example Wraithstone is actually hilariously OP rn. However until it is more consistently used in comp (and it is deemed decisive enough in games it is picked up) no one will even bother mentioning it because that would be such a waste to ask for nerfs for an item that the L4 forumers will inevitably claim is trash.

(Also the balance forums are literally a meme amongst comp players for a place where bad ideas develop).

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:35 pm 
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eddster27 wrote:
frankie3 wrote:
Yes eddster can cover for his experience but for more clarity I want the players who have been around since the beginning in competitive to give their opinion as well. Like Niki, Paulo, Bad Joe, Canole, Bowserslave, Whoopee, Jess and Notreallymad to name a few people who don't talk much here. Yes eddster is a good representative/player from competitive but he cannot represent every competitive player just like I can't represent every non-tourney player. Even them coming to put a +1 is enough as long as they give at least minor detail why they agree.


I hate to in group out group this again. But tourny players do talk to each other. We rarely make balance posts on things we individually decide is BS. There hasn't been much of a need to complain about balance until this patch really.

I personally know you guys talk to each other but thats because well I'm just frankie3. Even though I understand you guys are good at deciding as a group for competitive, that's not information available to most people and it would still help understand your stance as a whole without misinterpretation. Hence whty I stated even a small +1 with very small detail of 1 - 2 sentences at least.

Also tournaments have drafts (which very much show whether some nauts are OP/UP).

The patch before Vinnie's movement change was probably the best competitive patch there has ever been. Bans were tactical and all nauts were viable.
Now the first 4 bans and first 3 picks ALWAYS have Ayla, Vinnie, Scoop and Sentry in. Followed closely by Rocco.
So the fact that there isn't a single competitive player defending these nauts from suggested nerfs is not a surprise. If me ore Sam! or niki or MrPillow or anyone makes a balance post it usually covers all the points from a comp perspective, so other comp players don't have to bother.

This is where the problem with competitive balance imo comes into play and interferes with pub balance negatively. Competitive balance doesn't actually takes a look into the naut as a whole but just how much they are able win consistently using meta upgrades which we all know. Vinnie's reason for being banned is self explanatory because his burst is easy mode and silence cloud is broken. Ayla's reason along with scoop isn't as simple as Vinnie since personally I feel they just have an easier time scaling than other nauts which is common with nauts that have 3 damage abilities tied into utility.

Why was penny nerfed across the board for earlygame/lategame scaling when it was her earlygame that wa truly obnoxious. Rocco is 4th because despite being a strong pvp naut his early game is weak and he takes time to get strong. Competitive balance has the approach that typically brings other top nauts down whereas pub balance tries to bring other nauts up to be as consistently viable which is something you can't really see play out when you ban nauts.

The proof is that I never really see low tier balance as often as I should. Why is there constant neglect of gnaw/derpl/clunk/coco/penny/yuri/nibbs and the focus is always put on nauts that are fine for the most part. Scoop and ayla have better diversity than most and its happened from nerf cycles which is why currently they are banned so often. When will competitive balance acknowledge that and instead bring othet nauts in line first before touching things that aren't top priority.In order to do competitive balance every naut has to be reliable first or the nerf cycle will continue like normal. Who isn't a strong competitive naut and how can we make them more solid in competitive is my ideal approach currently. Nauts that work should never take priority over inconsistent nauts.


More niche ideas tend to not get posted until there is a general consensus that an item or naut is BS. For example Wraithstone is actually hilariously OP rn. However until it is more consistently used in comp (and it is deemed decisive enough in games it is picked up) no one will even bother mentioning it because that would be such a waste to ask for nerfs for an item that the L4 forumers will inevitably claim is trash.

(Also the balance forums are literally a meme for a place where bad ideas develop within comp games).


Wraitstone is only viable on ribbit and sorona due to the jungle/creep placements. Can be situationally viable on other maps like aguilon and Starstorm if you have map contol. See how I didn't talk about it viable or naut and instead explained the weaknesses and strengths of the upgrade. Now make it more useful by competitive players instead of polarizing like now. I plan on doing 3 nauts from each tier bracket of balance while suggesting adjustments for the utility row.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:12 pm 
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frankie3 wrote:
The proof is that I never really see low tier balance as often as I should. Why is there constant neglect of gnaw/derpl/clunk/coco/penny/yuri/nibbs and the focus is always put on nauts that are fine for the most part. Scoop and ayla have better diversity than most and its happened from nerf cycles which is why currently they are banned so often.


Derpl is good in competitive on most maps but is only really used on Ribbit. Coco is pretty much balanced in competitive potentially slightly on the weak side but this is probably more to do with the meta than any inherent problem with Coco. Penny is strong in competitive because of an insanely good early game + great teamfight damage and mobile brawling. She is particularly good on Sorona. Yuri can be great but can get countered pretty easily by poke comps. Nibbs is very strong in competitive due to immensely good teamfight and map pressure. She only really struggles at footsie nauts. Gnaw is currently viable but generally weak due to being very vulnerable and contributing next to nothing in teamfights.
(edit forgot clunk) Clunk is probably underrated right now but is countered insanely hard by pretty much all of the top picks right now: Scoop, Sentry, Ayla, Vinnie, Rocco, Skolldir, Voltar, Nibbs and Chucho.

When I said the previous patch was one of the best because all nauts were viable I meant it. There are very few nauts that need buffs in terms of competitive. Perhaps lonestar and ted. Ted just needs a limited version of stunpack to be good again. Lonestar is off because his design doesn't really fit into many comps, and if you buff him to be viable he becomes insane in pubs (see booming bullets double missiles and the patch just after his bull change).

Scoop and ayla are S tier right now because they are leagues ahead of the power level of nauts that are considered balanced in comp. Nauts like Skolldir, frog, leon and nibbs are around the power level most other nauts should be balanced towards. The ones that are underpowered are still relatively close to these nauts, however Scoop, Ayla, Vinnie and Sentry are so far ahead currently. So to balance this you either nerf the ones that are stupidly ahead or buff EVERYTHING else to be on their level, which in a communication medium like this is just unrealistic.

frankie3 wrote:
When will competitive balance acknowledge that and instead bring othet nauts in line first before touching things that aren't top priority.In order to do competitive balance every naut has to be reliable first or the nerf cycle will continue like normal. Who isn't a strong competitive naut and how can we make them more solid in competitive is my ideal approach currently. Nauts that work should never take priority over inconsistent nauts.


This is the other issue with what you are saying. Not every naut has to be equally viable. As long as every naut is viable in a particular situation. Drafts allow this to happen. It is fine that Scoop's design very much suits competitive gameplay. What is not fine is that the numbers attached to this make him better at certain tasks than more specialised nauts. (the guy is a better team fighter than clunk, a better assassin than frog, a better brawler than ted etc.)

This is why we only really suggest nerfs right now. Because every naut in the game is currently competitively viable and buffing characters off of this balance is could disrupt that balance. Also nauts that are currently considered "weak" have only received small nerfs to put them there. Most of them have experienced a time when they were crazy good 100% ban pick worthy nauts so small buffs could easily put them back there.

And to touch on a point I made earlier. To buff some nauts to a strong competitively viable level risks making them crazy good in pubs. Nauts like Rae, Yoolip, Skree, Lonestar and Gnaw would become monsters in pub games if they were given buffs to make them stronger picks in comp.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:14 pm 
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Maybe change rae's snipe blind to on hit? it seems a bit broken and annoying to just get the blind for rae just sweeping the area before sniping.
Also Volt does not need more droid explode damage, he can already melt people in his face.

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Last edited by Dewott610 on Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Everyone remember when they gave Skree the sunballs buff? That was very fun for comp and pubs being forced to be separated from your teammates!

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:21 am 
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Hey everyone, figured I should post here.

I would like to say that you should have confidence in me. I have not officially played in competitive teams, but I have had plenty of experience fighting against and with those who had. In addition, I generally cast for a lot of the tournaments. I spend a lot of time looking at competitive play and I have a good sense of balance for both the high end (competitive play) as well as casual pub play.

Being good at the game does help with understanding, but is not the end-all-be-all of balance. Balance takes a different mind-set that incorporates the ability to analyze and compare. Analytical thinking is best, and it does help to be handy with numbers. Otherwise, it takes a lot of imagination and creativity to come up with solutions to some characters (especially in the case of reworking certain items and character kits).

Otherwise, besides Awesomenauts I have had minor experience in DOTA and DOTA 2, extensive experience with League of Legends, and some more minor experience with Heros of the Storm. I have played a variety of games and types of games, which also assists to my understanding of Awesomenauts (because as much as I love it, Awesomenauts is not as complex as some other competitive games).

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