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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Luckytime wrote:
An area-denying ability works just fine on its own, it controls the area it literally occupies... :huh: You've got the right idea about how to use such an ability but you're misguided on the perspective of the defending party. A good map should give you 2 or 3 directions to move at any given time, so if one path gets blocked, you can take a different route. It is then up to the pursuing team to work together to corner you. This is how engaging teamwork comes about, it doesn't spring out of waiting by a choke point and then unloading all your damage once someone falls into a trap. We want to avoid that kind of mindless gameplay.

All maps offer at least two methods for switching lanes. If we use Ribbit as the example, you can use the central channel, the separate side paths through the jungle, or go all the way around behind the turret line—the long way.

At any rate, you're agreeing with that I say. Engaging teamwork does indeed come about from something more dynamic than "wait at the chokepoint and kill the first thing that comes through it", which is why removing the biggest offender's ability to do that is more sensible than redesigning the map for every single 'Naut—including those that aren't contributing to the chokepoint issue.

Yes, you could alter the map design to achieve the same effect, but all that will happen is the next most-contested chokepoint becomes the camping ground. I know this'll happen because it's literally what happens every single time Dota's map geometry changes to prevent chokepoint abuse—every single time without fail, and it's not just limited to Dota.

Luckytime wrote:
You're assuming the developer's intent, which is intellectually dishonest. Stop doing that.

On the balance of probabilities, can you come up with a better reason for verticality of the designs in a sidescrolling MOBA? I can't prove that it was Ronimo's intent, you're right, but it seems so massively likely that I'd be remiss to assume otherwise. Feel free to seek an official clarification from Ronimo.

Do you honestly think that Timerift's height being just taller than the average jump height (with respect to hitboxes) was happenstance, especially in maps that are more vertically complex than they are horizontally?

Luckytime wrote:
EVEN if I grant you that, this point is still moot because there are already areas where mobility is more restricted than others. You don't need to make a passageway the diameter of a single naut for it to count as a choke. The word "chokepoint" is a relative term, which is what you don't seem to understand. Some of the "chokepoints" on Ribbit and Aig would be better described as "deathtrap". These are not fun and engaging designs.

"EVEN if I grant you that,..." = "You're right, but..."

I never said chokepoints have to be the diameter of a single 'Naut. I never even gave a definition of what a chokepoint is. Indeed, I didn't, at any point, use the word "chokepoint" in my response. This is a strawman so massive it should be an effigy at Burning Man.

I agree with what was said, though. Apart from the "fun and engaging" bit—that's personal preference.

Luckytime wrote:
If I wasn't clear, I'm not arguing against Derpl's rework (not sure how you got that idea). I'm simply pointing out another (more serious imo) problem that isn't being addressed.

I don't know why you think that I think that you're against Derpl's rework. I never mentioned it. He's always had +100% uptime on his snares, even before the change.

Luckytime wrote:
Also, people have jobs/families etc.
out of courtesy, please summarize when you respond to someone.

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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Bye Felicia :CocoWink:

EDIT: never arguing with you again, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:32 pm 
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On-topic: have people adapted to the Derpl changes yet?

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Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:51 am 
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While my previous posts were rants about "playing as" Derpl, this short post is going to be about "playing vs" Derpl:

I've been playing vs some Derpls now and it looks like "trap hugging" is indeed back. Especially against lagging Derpls (300 ping) it suffices to be next to an enemy Derpl and you will be garantueed trapped. This is not fun to play against and feels undeserved. Trap hugging was removed in the game's early days for a good reason. My opinion on new Derpl remains unchanged. I would like for the trap change to be reversed.

If he is too polarizing, then nerf him in other aspects please, such as HP, shield, damage output, etc. Don't change his fundamental playstyle/meta. It's what caused me to drop playing as him. It's what caused me to drop playing as Genji, for that matter (the jump change).


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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:14 am 
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I just don't think the derpl goals are met at all. Derpl still drop nukes despite lower fall speed, still facenukes by sieging into agro enemies, siege upgrades still make derpl too oppressive VS melee, nuke dmg scales too hard early game and traps still give derpl enough time to nuke.

Literally non of the changes affected this playstyle.


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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:23 am 
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When you make an ability called "Nuke" it's hard not to make it oppressive.


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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:26 am 
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What happened to this thread :derp:


I'll agree with Japie on the fact that these changes didn't really do anything for Derpl, I think dropnuking is fine, mostly just traps that were supposed to be less opressive, but these changes were kinda oddly made and implemented.

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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Luckytime wrote:
When you make an ability called "Nuke" it's hard not to make it oppressive.

Are you... are you saying we should balance around the lore?

Unironically?

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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:08 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Are you... are you saying we should balance around the lore?

Unironically?

Sure, WWII has some juicy lore. Why not?


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 Post subject: Re: Derpl
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Luckytime wrote:
The Lord Protector wrote:
Are you... are you saying we should balance around the lore?

Unironically?

Sure, WWII has some juicy lore. Why not?

Everything changed when the Derpls were dropped on Japan...

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