Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ Awesomenauts



Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:04 am
Posts: 587
Xelrog wrote:
Raelynn needs more interesting AA upgrades in general.

Well, that's the thing, does she really need more interesting AA upgrades, or is it just innovation for the sake of innovation? I could certainly be wrong, but I think making such changes just for the sake of changing isn't worth it, in a lot of situations, I could imagine a lot of more situational upgrades being overshadowed by the practical ones.

It is true, She doesn't have a whole lot of variety, I can only come up with 4 decent basic attack builds, and if you want to, I could even explain why they're different and my reasoning for each. None of which involve monkey hand, wonder why that is.
But the only things I think would be worth replacing without a doubt is monkey hand, one of the damage upgrades could be swapped out, but the replacement would have to be something really tantalizing to not be ignored by anyone going a pierce or DPS build.

For example, look at humming, I named plenty of the ways this upgrade can help with tasks no other upgrade could even begin to, but at the end of the day, it's an incredibly niche upgrade that's going to be neglected when put side-by-side with more reliable gear, even when accounting it's body blocking power.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't really see the point of fixing something that isn't broken, and I'm a bit worried that replacing some things other than monkey hand, interesting or not, might end up being totally forgotten by more reliable and powerful upgrades, and ironically, might lead to more linear builds.

_________________
The Golden Rule:
Always treat others like sisters and brothers
and they'll do the same for you.

The Lord Protector wrote:
The solution to this is having droids that are actually a threat instead of a joke.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:16 pm
Posts: 9468
Location: Washington, USA
Right now she's just "that one character whose AA damage scales linearly with solar." I guess she's got that unique about her. Well, her and Lonestar, but at least he's got two ways to build the damage: regular and missiles, both of which have benefits and drawbacks.

With all that said, as much as her AA damage is now dependent on solar upgrades, I don't know how well it could be rebalanced if all those damage upgrades were suddenly gone. With just the regular damage scaling, she would get either a crazy strong base AA or a useless endgame AA.

_________________
Burningdillo wrote:


On Steam | On Twitch | On YouTube
Who's Your Awesomenaut?

Mains: :chew: :fist: :ayla:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:11 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: A bunker in prep for the first AI war
even though all the dps items are dps items they all do it in a different enough way to feel unique. All of them have situations where it is better to pick one over the other so I don't really see a problem with Rae's aa items.

people saying 4 dps items on a row = bad has been a pet peeve of mine - usual targets are rae and leon, both of which have dps items that do it in different ways.

_________________
My steam profile: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198055582507

Check out my streams: twitch.tv/the_eddster27
Make sure you follow the MS Paint off!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 am
Posts: 2644
Location: In my palace, mixing my martinis with paint thinner and a healthy squirt of epoxy adhesive.
The problem with Raelynn specifically is that she has two upgrades that are literally identical in their function (Skull Bracelet and Receding Ponytail), so naturally the one that's 30 Solar cheaper is the only viable option, assuming you can wait a little for the additional Solar.

Lucky Cat Air Freshener is a trap upgrade because of how it stacks with her other damage upgrades, which is to say linearly instead of multiplicatively like attack speed (from Joe Doll), so picking the latter is almost always the superior choice anyway, as it offers nearly equal damage with zero of the situational requirement. It's for that reason that stacking flat damage on Raelynn is a worse choice than choosing one instance of flat damage and then Joe Doll, too—unless you're building around HC-Bomb, which really isn't much to shout about these days.

Alien Hand is a unique enough idea to allow for a little build variety, I suppose, but Monkey Paw's +2 range is rather lacklustre in comparison to just heaping on more damage. Now, it does increase her total attack area by a whopping 56.3%, but this is on a 'Naut who can't really take advantage of that to any meaningful degree, so it's not as splendid as it seems.

Additionally, the idea that Lucky Cat Air Freshener is unique and can therefore stay is specious, because its uniqueness is only at face value:

    Protoblaster's Base DPS: 187.5

    with Receding Ponytail only: 228.75

    with Receding Ponytail and Lucky Cat Air Freshener: 286.5 (only 228.75 against non-'Nauts)

    with Receding Ponytail and Joe Doll: 279.08 (against everything)

    Receding Ponytail, Joe Doll, and Lucky Cat Air Freshener: 349.53 (only 279.08 against non-'Nauts)

    Receding Ponytail, Joe Doll, and Skull Bracelet: 329.4 (against everything)

For a not-insubstantial increase in Solar, you're effectively paying to increase your 'Naut damage only marginally (+6.1%) but quite strongly reduce your droid and structure damage (-15.3%), where you could just pay less Solar and have more consistent damage across the board. Bear in mind also that Raelynn's structure damage is particularly good on her AA, as it doesn't suffer structure penalties, and that she's already pretty good at dealing 'Naut damage. Now, you could argue that Raelynn doesn't really need more droid clear on top of Timerift, but it's also a sacrifice of the ever-important structure damage.

Having several DPS items on the same row isn't in and of itself a bad idea, but when there's a specific combination of them that more or less overrides all other potential combinations, it's not a diverse row at that point.

Variety of choice is not variety of outcome.

_________________
Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:04 am
Posts: 587
But just from building Joe+receding+bracelet alone, I know the intentions of your build.
The intentions of a build like that is heavily focused on sieging.

My assumption here is because you denied cat air freshener, meaning you want higher DPS vs everything in general, but you're likely willing to sacrifice an ability to destroy the droids rather than use your AA, because you bought nothing but damage, rather than also purchasing pierce.
Even with the heightened DPS, your clear power through AA alone won't clear as fast as a Raelynn who bought pierce and nothing else. So as a result, it takes longer to clear without burning an ability, you do more damage to non-nauts than any other build, but the place this build really shines is in turret destruction, sacrificing some of the damage you can have in team fights in hopes that in winning them, you can take more out of structures.

Compare that to, say, Joe+Receding+Air Freshener, which is a really great build for an extensive fights, still hit fairly hard with HC, and can follow up with the DPS. It's pretty useful against just about any tanky nauts, with the exception of Deadlift, which it does work against, but I prefer to get pierce to burn through his pose faster.

Triple Damage is great for immediate burst damage, chasing opponents to finish them if they're in tight corners you can't snipe, and stuff like that, it's also very effective for those who had sold their soul to HC stacking.

And it can be very important to have double damage as it's far more effective to get a hold of critters faster against enemies with a lot of delayed damage such as Gnaw, Qi'tara, and Chucho, and this can be really important because it decreases the time needed to kill critters due to dying in one shot at level 8, while Raelynns with only one of the damage upgrades requires two shots until level 15. Meaning a lot of nauts can and will wait for you to fire the first shot, then kill the critter immediately after if their time to kill is also not a 1 shot, while being able to get it in one hit removes that type of opportunity.

According to the Gamepedia, there are turrets with as much health as 11,900. A Raelynn with the turret shredding build max level with 517 DPS rounding down, will have the turret taken care of in 23 seconds, more or less, not including droids or assistance from allies. Comparing this to the anti-naut DPS build mentioned earlier (Ponytail, Joe, Air Freshener) which is 438 DPS to structures rounded down, once again, max level, it will take 27.2 Seconds, once again, without any assistance factored in. So, from the highest turret health I could find on gamepedia, the difference is just over 4 seconds, which, to be fair, just might be the time an enemy needs to respawn and flank. But bear in mind the difference is 5 seconds at level 10, and 6.5 seconds at base. It's also worth pointing out at base with the turret shred build she can take out the turret in such an example in 36 seconds, 28 seconds at 10, and 23 at 20.

I point this out because due to the leveling system, and structure's lack of regen, upgrades certainly help, but a huge gap closer for how long it takes are levels. Also, this is considering the fact that any damage you deal to structures will be permanent, this does mean that you'll deal more damage in the prolonged pushes with Receding+Bracelet, hell, I even pointed out that this build is still better at securing critters as well, but this also means cat air freshener has a place in building heavy but practical burst, or wanting to build DPS, but you're confident enough your team has enough structure damage potential, and you want more damage in team fights, hopefully so you can kill an opponent, and gain the upper hand needed to do such a prolonged push in the first place.

_________________
The Golden Rule:
Always treat others like sisters and brothers
and they'll do the same for you.

The Lord Protector wrote:
The solution to this is having droids that are actually a threat instead of a joke.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Realynn rift and piercing is to save and does to much.
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:11 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: A bunker in prep for the first AI war
TLP you pretty much made my point for me then came to a conclusion that there's only one viable build because you think HC is bad.

for skull vs ponytail - yes the availability of solar can sometimes be enough of a reason - having 2 identical items but having the more expensive one be more cost effective is fine.

For air freshener builds it's all about stacking HC/it's the most cost effect damage upgrade. Yes it's nauts only, but that's pretty much the only thing that matters in nauts. If the game is close then having more structure damage isn't going to be as impactful as more nauts damage. Rae's droid clear at base is also good enough.

If you are going for triple dps items then there are only really 3 builds:

ponytail, skull and air freshener - For maximising HC bomb - absolutely viable and much better with burst comps or for dealing with squishies + mid to lategame it gives rae a combo that can 100-0 most nauts (double HC + snipe)

ponytail/(skull), air freshener and joe doll - For maximising nauts only dps - probably the best build in the majority of games - particularly against tanks or any situation where the enemy need to go in and are then vulnerable to the counter initiate/brawl where Rae just out damages them.

ponytail, skull and joe doll - for maximising turret and droid damage. I'd argue this one is almost a meme because of how little impact the extra turret damage has. Droid clear is useful but then why not just get pierce instead? In the games where it looks like you are losing/it's very close (which are the only games where builds actually matter) having the extra turret damage does basically nothing.

_________________
My steam profile: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198055582507

Check out my streams: twitch.tv/the_eddster27
Make sure you follow the MS Paint off!


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6