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 Post subject: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Hello, I recently have gotten the 250 badge win with Swiggins & I must say that...It was very, very difficult out of the 4 characters I main. Not only that by my winrate with Swigs is significantly lower than the other characters I main (one of them being Yoolip)

I've been looking at various guides on Swigs & the general consensus is that his only good for ganking weaken enemies & needs good team mates into to be effective. Other than that, gets body by tanks, characters with sustain & support healing unit meaning he has a lot of bad match up because of that. I was looking at the community tierlist & saw Swigs is around the C-D area for a lot of people with 2 people thinking his B

One of the problems I have with Swigs is that his a little too team dependant, just gets okish damage off & usually can't do much after
- Anchor Shot can be unreliable as even the smallest amount of knockback cancels it
- Base damage after anchor chain's break is so abyssal I don't even expect it to kill nauts with 50hp when I throw it at them
- Anchor's base health is a little low making it easy to be locked out of anchor shot if you need it (I'm aware of the HP upgrade)
- In the games where team mates are not as good as the other team, it feels more harder as Swig to make a comeback

It's gets to a point where (being in L2), if I have a either 1 team mate in L3 or lower, I don't usually pick Swigs. Even nearing the 250 mark, there are games if team mates are struggling, it's just so hard to do anything (not complaining, just an example of how team dependant he can be at times)

I'm not suggesting any drastic changes but a small change such as being able to recall the anchor at anytime after broken (including its destruction) & knockback immunity during the Anchor Shot animation. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the worst fighter currently in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:58 pm 
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He's ok power-wise, there are matchups where he feels definitely unfair to fight against (go up against a swig and a team that can easily follow-up behind him while having nauts like leon or frog, you'll be amused how aggressive you can go against that), but these days, more matchups that he can get easily snowballed upon (especially with the like of sentry and smiles rampaging around, even tough he has CC immunity to combat the latter)

Kinda like rocco, wait a meta shift.


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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:31 pm 
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He's strong but very matchup dependent. Against squishies he's an absolute monster with so many bursty damage items allowing him to 100-0 mostly everyone during anchor drop, but he struggles against comps that have reversal teamfights like time warp, blessing, black hole etc.

I will say that he's not that fun to play because the anchor takes way too long to return to him on destruction, he has the biggest downtime of all characters. I wouldn't mind seeing his downtime get reduced if the strongest AA item in the game (shield AA) on him gets reduced by a total of 5%. Lategame swiggins with barrier, shield and pills is absolutely stupid and pretty much becomes immortal. Walking around with a 28% shield on all the time is mindblowing.

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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Swiggins does still have situations in which he's very powerful, but he definitely fails a bit when compared to the other two "single target disabler" 'nauts in the game. ( :worship: / :yoolip: )
But let's take your comments first, and then I'll make my comments on why Genji and Yoolip do Swiggins' job better.
ArcanaTXT wrote:
- Anchor Shot can be unreliable as even the smallest amount of knockback cancels it
This honestly feels more like a bug than anything, and it's been in the game forever. I would really like to see it patched.
- Base damage after anchor chain's break is so abyssal I don't even expect it to kill nauts with 50hp when I throw it at them
It isn't meant to kill people. :ugeek: Swiggins in general is meant to be an initiator who locks down an important target for his allies to kill. The only reason the base anchor was given any damage was to stop everyone from buying Peumatic Spoon every game. At least, that's my understanding.
- Anchor's base health is a little low making it easy to be locked out of anchor shot if you need it (I'm aware of the HP upgrade)
This is another huge problem with Swiggins. As every form of burst/heavy DPS has been increased over the years Hombolt's health seems to have remained stagnant. Even with the health upgrade the anchor dies whenever any mid-tier burst is launched at it, and considering the huge array of spammable burst/heavy DPS options in this game (Frog Dash, Frog 'Nado, Lonestar 'Myte, Scoop Bindings, Raelynn Snipe, Ayla Eye, Ayla Rage, Clunk Explode, Voltar Drones, Coco Ball, Skolldir Throwing Gnome, Skolldir Punches, Yuri Mine, Derpl Nuke, Vinnie & Spike Dash, Genji Explode Cocoon, Genji Storm Cloud, Ted McPain Air Strike, Penny Fox Dash, Penny Fox Pulse, Skree Saw, Nibbs Fire, Yoolip Dinos, Ramona shooting at Hombolt, Jimmy in general, Max Scene Floodlights, Deadlift Lunge, Dizzy Clone, Smiles Tail Whip, Smiles Flamethrower, Rocket's Big Rocket, and now Snork's Shell Bombs) it is incredibly easy to burst down an inanimate object. And using one ability to essentially delete 80% of an enemy's kit is quite a good tradeoff in most situations.
- In the games where team mates are not as good as the other team, it feels more harder as Swig to make a comeback
Again: he's not supposed to be a solo carry. He relies heavily on his teammates to be successful, which is fine, but a big flaw is how other 'nauts simply do it better.

The big problem with Swiggins however is how he compares to other similar options.
Let's first talk about Genji. Genji when compared to Swiggins has:
  • A disable that stops all attacks.
  • Range, both in his disable and his auto attack.
  • He doesn't need to literally dive into a fight to disable someone. (This does admittedly contribute to lower mobility)
  • Shielding and healing for his team.
  • Fairly similar mobility to Swiggins.
  • Low health.
  • Somewhat low movement speed with little ways to improve it.
  • Modestly poor damage, though still passable and not much lower than Swiggins.
  • Possibility to accidentally shield enemies. (This however usually will not happen with good Genji players and coordinated teams.)
Alright; now let's look at Yoolip. When compared to Swiggins he has:
  • A disable that actually keeps the target still, making them unable to attack or move around.
  • Modestly decent (if chaotic and unreliable) ranged damage.
  • Very strong healing output for his team.
  • Strong pushing power.
  • A speed boost after using his disable.
  • Low health.
  • Low mobility overall (not including speed boost.)
  • Melee.
  • Self stun to stun opponent.

You can notice a few key similarities between these two characters that put them above Swiggins in terms of general utility.
  1. A disable that actually zorking works.
    Quote:
    Swiggins' disable is easily the most unreliable of these three 'nauts. While technically the "safest" as it has very little room for error, it is also very easy to escape and somewhat hard to capitalize on as the locked down 'naut is still capable of fighting.
  2. Ranged damage.
    Quote:
    At its core there's very little that can be done with Swiggins' design as a melee character. In addition he does gain a ranged attack after using his disable which does help him keep distance after being disempowered by the use of his abilities. But that being said Genji (the most reliable of these three 'nauts) has very good range which helps him to keep out of harms way and lets him use his high value abilities without interruption. Yoolip avoids the problem of having to be at range somewhat by his self stun (replace one problem with another lol) but even when his stun is down he still has his dinosaurs to cause havoc from a distance while his main team-play asset is down.
  3. Something beyond a zorking disable.
    Quote:
    This is probably the biggest offender for Swiggins specifically. Swiggins, after using his Anchor Drop, really doesn't provide much to the team. He's a one trick pony who does a bit of burst to an opponent and locks them down before going "eggs dee I've done everything I can do time to AFK in base." Compare that to Genji and Yoolip who can deal good damage reliably after using their disables, and provide strong supportive tools for their team even after they've used their respective disable.

In addition the weaknesses that these 'nauts have when compared to Swiggins are negligible if not flat out non-issues in most cases:
  1. Low health.
    Quote:
    The thing is that, even though Swiggins' health is high, it's not nearly high enough to be a reliable tank. Yes he can take more of a beating than others (especially with his shielding upgrade when he lacks Hombolt) but he lacks any proper form of self sustain or damage negation to make him a good tank. They can kill you in 5 shots or they can kill you in 10: it doesn't matter if they shoot you 100 times.
  2. Low mobility.
    Quote:
    Not much lower than Swiggins. Swiggins' only real mobility is for initiating, and while that is valuable (especially when on offence) it quickly loses value when playing defensively.
  3. Low/Unreliable damage.
    Quote:
    Swiggins doesn't really have good damage either, and at its core these characters should have low damage outputs. They're meant to help their team; not get kills solo. Genji and Yoolip have lower DPS than Swiggins simply because they offer more supportive utility instead. And everyone can deal damage but not everyone can heal or shield, henceforth making Genji/Yoolip and their strengths "rarer" and henceforth more valuable.
  4. Character-specific flaws.
    Quote:
    Genji's shielding of enemies and Yoolip's self stun can be worked around by good players and good teams. Swiggins' anchor dying is largely an inevitability with how weak Hombolt is, and there is nothing that a player can do to make losing all their abilities "better."


Overall I think Swiggins has lost a lot of value over the years as newer better nauts took his place. His only utility is now provided by other nauts who have other greater utilities which he lacks. He needs to be able to contribute more on his own, either through tanking, damage output, or some other supportive ability to rival Genji and Yoolip.
Just as a conceptual thing that I made up right now: it might be a good idea to merge Anchor Dive and Anchor Drop into one ability (target hit with Dive has the anchor attached to them) and give Swiggins a new "Rally" ability that would increase allies' combat capabilities. This is largely just a concept however and I don't want to propose reworks to Swiggins yet. What I will certainly say is that he is extremely lacking in his current state and almost every other initiator does his job better.

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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:13 am 
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Swig's issue is that he is a tweener.

He's not the best assassin
He's not the best lockdown
He's not the best tank
He's not the most aggressive pusher
His harass isn't outstanding

He doesn't fill one role better than any specialised naut, being more well rounded. This is good in a team with two specialists who ovelap and need someone to help balance out multiple roles at once. But when you need one job done well, there are better options for any one.


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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:24 pm 
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MisguidedWorm7 wrote:
Swig's issue is that he is a tweener.

He's not the best assassin
He's not the best lockdown
He's not the best tank
He's not the most aggressive pusher
His harass isn't outstanding

He doesn't fill one role better than any specialised naut, being more well rounded. This is good in a team with two specialists who ovelap and need someone to help balance out multiple roles at once. But when you need one job done well, there are better options for any one.

This line of thinking doesn't really apply to nauts being as fast as it is. You're defining nauts based on categories and not seeing the grander picture on how they'll play out in teams. For example, you can tell me that sentry is better in all of the categories above but they're two completely different characters who are used for different things.

Sentry is a slow wall which makes it impossible to approach safely, enforcing push and deathball teams. Swiggins is an aggressive gank setup character who needs to be paired with characters that can actually capitalise on anchors with fast movement (dashers) to get the most out of them, because he has explosive initiate from a distance. Compare two teams of sentry/frog/vinnie to swig/frog/vinnie and they'll play out completely differently, with swigs being a much more aggressive choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:49 pm 
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He is a great char and not weak. Also he has great music and the best Voice Acting. I suppose he is not much of 1 vs 3 team carrier like pushier stall nauts are, but together he makes a great combo with almost everyone. His only weaknesses are that he has long cooldown, and that Sentry is better than he at everything he does.

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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:08 am 
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You can't really damage buff Swig since all his buffs will go towards his collapse, he has no other moment of applying enough damage. His collapse is designed to be inevitably easy, forcing his damage to stay somewhere in the middle where it doesn't affect the whole cast.

Because adding damage to the char breaks him, they added different kinds of like blind, immunity and shield. This doesn't always help without a team, because the only way to progress in the game is to kill and/or push.

This is also why I don't like Snork Gunk, where they created an even faster collapse character. These design decisions on one end hurt any kind of of character potentional because "hey, this character can collapse screen length in less than a second, so we can't give him other strong options". I really think nauts should go back to more versatility for each char, giving more options for each character.


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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:36 am 
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Japiepatatzakie wrote:
This is also why I don't like Snork Gunk, where they created an even faster collapse character. These design decisions on one end hurt any kind of of character potentional because "hey, this character can collapse screen length in less than a second, so we can't give him other strong options". I really think nauts should go back to more versatility for each char, giving more options for each character.


That's unfortunately the route they're taking. Characters like Ted, clunk or scoop (done when he got butchered then buffed multiple times) are cruelly lacking imo.

This kind of char is also way harder to balance unless you give them mechanical drawbacks and limits, Number buff them and they become oppressive as hell, number nerf them and just literally pick any other char that are better as generalist.

Basically you can throw in the same bag smiles and qi'tara also.


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 Post subject: Re: Swiggins feels underpowered & he has for a long time?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:02 pm 
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I'm personally leaning in the opposite direction. I'd really much rather have 'nauts actually have specific strengths and weaknesses, as opposed to having everyone be a generalist. That way unique strategies and game plans can be formed as opposed to picking the same 10 characters every single game. (Cough League of Legends Cough)
Characters like Clunk would be more popular if characters like Siwggins and Yoolip were more popular. Unfortunately with all the easy burst options for Swiggins' Hook and Yoolip's frail old man body (as well as all the escape options from Genji's Cocoon) it's hard to use these types of 'nauts efficiently, which makes any 'naut that relies on having setup much weaker as a result.

But this is a thread about Swiggins not the game as a whole or the state of its new characters. :think:

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