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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:21 am 
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Froggy? And Swiggings (after dropping his hook)?

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:48 pm 
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So I guess there are only 2 assassins in this game? That's cute

You mention froggy, but froggy's usual build rotates around ninja worm where he can do stuff with dash, adding in thornfish which outclasses piranha Cartridges and octo + eel against matchups you need waveclear, so using froggy as a comparing baseline is dumb.
You also mention swiggins, which only has AS and damage as damage upgrade and even then, he gets to have 304 DPS while melee and 271 DPS while ranged at lvl 1, compared to vinnie which with the same kind of upgrades, only has 258 DPS at lvl 1. And while vinnie can still pump up his DPS with loanshark or codfather, swiggins can build any utilities he wants for a very economical DPS build, also a bad comparison.

Now let's take a look at other assassins.
Leon with only attack speed outdps a scarfish+al carper vinnie at lvl 1 (263 DPS) and can buy 2 extra upgrades.
Ksenia Outdps him while he has scarfish+al carper without even needing to buy an upgrade at lvl 1 thanks to AA cancelling and only needs bobcat + laserblade to retain her DPS higher than the norm.
Nibbs never builds DPS on frenzy unless it's morrowsaw playing and if that was the case, would still outdps vinnie scarfish+al carper at lvl 1 thanks to frenzy stacking.
Penny outdps him while he has scarfish+al carper when reaching max charges with cookie badge only (255 DPS increased to 271 with grey badge), and while vinnie can override that fact with another damage upgrade, that lets penny builds 2(1) extra utilities on AA for free.

So once again, guybrush spew out misconceptions that are completely easy to break with basic math knowledge. But as I said to TLP, when you don't play the game, it's hard to take ppls seriously.

And frankly, I don't even know why I'm talking about all this while it should be obvious to everyone that vinnie isn't a lategame DPS monster, Especially since he builds yakoiza to further increase his burst.

edit : fixed typo


Last edited by Mr Nutz jr on Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Mr Nutz jr wrote:
And frankly, I don't even know while I'm talking about all this while it should be obvious to everyone that vinnie isn't a lategame DPS monster, Especially since he builds yakoiza to further increase his burst.

This. I've never seen a Vinnie go for DPS, and if even if they do it's expensive, and not as effective as just running yakoiza, and the standard dash build.

Vinnie is alright, and has plenty of weaknesses which make him pretty fair (Blindspots and such), but he has some very expensive items that can hold him back since all of his mandatory damage upgrades cost over 200 solar a stage. What I fail to get is why every character in the game is apparently so close to being broken. I don't feel like slight buffs to Vinnie would cause him to suddenly dominate the meta. Just give him some long overdue price buffs especially for his AA, and he'll probs be a lot better off.

Sam! wrote:
Get rid of the terrible bag of gold fish mechanics already and just make it 250 solar flat or something.

Don't do this. Why would you remove the only thing that makes Bag of Goldfish an interesting item? Maybe lowering the cost to 100 instead for the same effect, but keeping the mechanic.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Mr Nutz jr wrote:
So I guess there are only 2 assassins in this game? That's cute

You mention froggy, but froggy's usual build rotates around ninja worm where he can do stuff with dash, adding in thornfish which outclasses piranha Cartridges and octo + eel against matchups you need waveclear, so using froggy as a comparing baseline is dumb.
You also mention swiggins, which only has AS and damage as damage upgrade and even then, he gets to have 304 DPS while melee and 271 DPS while ranged at lvl 1, compared to vinnie which with the same kind of upgrades, only has 258 DPS at lvl 1. And while vinnie can still pump up his DPS with loanshark or codfather, swiggins can build any utilities he wants for a very economical DPS build, also a bad comparison.

Now let's take a look at other assassins.
Leon with only attack speed outdps a scarfish+al carper vinnie at lvl 1 (263 DPS) and can buy 2 extra upgrades.
Ksenia Outdps him while he has scarfish+al carper without even needing to buy an upgrade at lvl 1 thanks to AA cancelling and only needs bobcat + laserblade to retain her DPS higher than the norm.
Nibbs never builds DPS on frenzy unless it's morrowsaw playing and if that was the case, would still outdps vinnie scarfish+al carper at lvl 1 thanks to frenzy stacking.
Penny outdps him while he has scarfish+al carper when reaching max charges with cookie badge only (255 DPS increased to 271 with grey badge), and while vinnie can override that fact with another damage upgrade, that lets penny builds 2(1) extra utilities on AA for free.

So once again, guybrush spew out misconceptions that are completely easy to break with basic math knowledge. But as I said to TLP, when you don't play the game, it's hard to take ppls seriously.

And frankly, I don't even know why I'm talking about all this while it should be obvious to everyone that vinnie isn't a lategame DPS monster, Especially since he builds yakoiza to further increase his burst.

edit : fixed typo


Good post, too bad I dont remember the names of the items for any naut, and Im like rank 1500 plebej not a Master assassin. I just brought those 2 guys up, since at least in my hands, their AA is pitiful after using the skills, compared to Vinnie who can still do very good finishing, turret pushing and droid killing with his AA even in my hands.

That said, of course I dont build Vinnie from the start as an AA dps char, I just add the 4th bullet, attack speed, and range/dmg after taking.the essentials for his main skills. His AA also is one of the better for defence/stalling.

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Last edited by IsoKoala on Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Morrowsaw wrote:
Don't do this. Why would you remove the only thing that makes Bag of Goldfish an interesting item? Maybe lowering the cost to 100 instead for the same effect, but keeping the mechanic.

Does the Solar requirement make Bag of Goldfish unique?

Yes.

Does the Solar requirement make Bag of Goldfish meaningfully unique?

No.

It's effectively just an added Solar cost that needs to be factored in every time you make a purchase. If it dealt damage based on the amount of Solar enemies were holding, however, then it might have some interesting applications (although even then, it could be a little forced).

Uniqueness is not usefulness.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Goldfish is cheap, flexible burst. If you've bought goldfish, sometimes it's appropriate to dip into that $150 to buy something you need (& save you the trouble of having to go back to the store a minute later)

Simply raising the price of goldfish to $300 and removing this mechanic would make his early game slow and even more boring than it currently is. he's a pretty useless naut until he gets some burst going. Or if he has toxic trap gank combo to work with


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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:54 pm 
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This is a good example of not seeing the forest for the trees.

Yes, Bag Full of Gold Fish costs 150 Solar to purchase, but it "costs" 300 Solar for all intents and purposes. It effectively reduces your minimum Solar to -150, because the 150 Solar used to maintain the bonus damage from the upgrade is written off. Calling it "cheap" burst as a result of the up-front price tag doesn't make sense when you consider the committed Solar.

I suppose you could "dip into" the reserve pool and purchase another upgrade (and then make up the difference in battle) like you said, but that's not generating any advantage—until that reserve pool of 150 Solar is refilled, you lose the bonus damage from Bag Full of Gold Fish. There is no additional value generated from it in that meantime. You are, all things considered, 150 Solar worse off: a zero-sum.

That does technically generate the investment advantage of "buying" the upgrade without needing to return to the shop, but that's a very, very specific bonus that I can't imagine has ever made any real difference to the outcome of a match.

It's a cleverly deceptive upgrade in the same way the old Solar Tree was. I don't think making it 300 Solar and turning it into standard bonus damage is the way to go, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Its not 300 solars at all really. Nor deceptive upgrade either. Its an 150 upgrade, one that you just cant utilize 100% of the time, if you keep going to the base much.

When I have like 250 solar and 5% HP to escape to heal, its no brainer to buy the another 210 solar dmg upgrade, since even if it does lower my total dmg by a bit for a little while, after I have gathered the 150 back I am stronger than before anyway, and the drop was small to begin with.

Going for other upgrades is always a bit more bigger question though, but Id probably take presidential mask If I have the solar, even though it means ill be out of the extra dmg for a while again. I wouldnt take any of the AA upgrades or other less mandatory ones though, unless I was left with 100+ solar after the purchase.

Overall its versatile upgrade system, and not directly 300 solars by any means. Its 150 solars upgrade, that functions the ammount of time you want it to function.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:36 pm 
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IsoKoala wrote:
When I have like 250 solar and 5% HP to escape to heal, its no brainer to buy the another 210 solar dmg upgrade, since even if it does lower my total dmg by a bit for a little while, after I have gathered the 150 back I am stronger than before anyway, and the drop was small to begin with.

This is what I mean.

It's a no-brainer to buy Chrome File because you can't, in essence, afford to buy Bag Full of Gold Fish. You're presented with the situation of either increasing your damage by 12% for 210 Solar, or by 20% for 150 Solar—except it'd actually be 0% for 150 Solar, because you wouldn't have enough to make the effect work at that moment.

By the time you do have enough Solar to make the effect work (and I assume you'd want its uptime to be as close to 100% as possible), you might as well have spent 300 Solar in the first place. I can't think of any situation in which willingly going below the 150 Solar threshold would be beneficial, because that would drop your Spike Dive damage by a not-insubstantial amount.

Yes, it offers you the ability to "buy" a 20% damage upgrade for a "cheap" price and have it useful later without returning to base, but that upgrade doesn't function until you have the reserves for it. In that case, you might as well shell out the full 300 Solar and have it work without any strings—the boring way.

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Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:19 pm 
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The best build is tank vinnie, then you feed and buy codfather, then solo wipe with only aa while nobody is watching. especially not the enemy team.

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