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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Some sort of massive misdirection build?

"Aha! You thought I was bad, but I'm really only slightly mediocre—prepare to die!"

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:41 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
IsoKoala wrote:
When I have like 250 solar and 5% HP to escape to heal, its no brainer to buy the another 210 solar dmg upgrade, since even if it does lower my total dmg by a bit for a little while, after I have gathered the 150 back I am stronger than before anyway, and the drop was small to begin with.

This is what I mean.

It's a no-brainer to buy Chrome File because you can't, in essence, afford to buy Bag Full of Gold Fish. You're presented with the situation of either increasing your damage by 12% for 210 Solar, or by 20% for 150 Solar—except it'd actually be 0% for 150 Solar, because you wouldn't have enough to make the effect work at that moment.

By the time you do have enough Solar to make the effect work (and I assume you'd want its uptime to be as close to 100% as possible), you might as well have spent 300 Solar in the first place. I can't think of any situation in which willingly going below the 150 Solar threshold would be beneficial, because that would drop your Spike Dive damage by a not-insubstantial amount.

Yes, it offers you the ability to "buy" a 20% damage upgrade for a "cheap" price and have it useful later without returning to base, but that upgrade doesn't function until you have the reserves for it. In that case, you might as well shell out the full 300 Solar and have it work without any strings—the boring way.


Actually I meant that if I already have the Gold Fish, its not a bad deal to buy Chrome File even if this drops my solar below 150, since it wont drop the dmg from +20% to 0, but just from + 20 to 12. And pretty soon, -far before I would normally return to the base again-, I will be at +32%.

Inspecting, lets say, 5 minutes cycle around the purchases, my dmg bonuses on avarage are higher this way, compared to if I religiously kept 150 in pocket every single second.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:29 pm 
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IsoKoala wrote:
...since it wont drop the dmg from +20% to 0, but just from + 20 to 12.

No. This is what I'm saying. It's deceptive.

For the Solar and upgrade slots you have expended, your damage is dropping from +32% (BFoGF + CF) to just +12% (CF). Think of the initial 150 Solar to actually purchase Bag Full of Gold Fish as being held in limbo until you have the rest. Those 150 pieces of Solar, in and of themselves, don't do anything.

You're effectively paying 360 Solar for +12% damage, until you then re-accrue 150 Solar, upon which time it jumps back up to +32%. It's 510 Solar for the whole deal, and no different to just paying 210 Solar for the +12% damage and then "300" Solar for the +20% damage. Again, I don't think making Bag Full of Gold Fish a standard upgrade is the way to go, but it's interesting.

The "half now, half later" gives you a little bit of flexibility, sure, but is the ability not to go back to base once to "buy" Bag Full of Gold Fish really a massively strategic benefit? Dubitable.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:33 pm 
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When you don't have 150 solar, you effectively haven't purchased the upgrade. It's a 300-solar damage upgrade.

The only difference between Goldfish and a 300-solar damage upgrade is that Goldfish requires needless math. :shrug: And also that you can lose your purchase by playing badly enough and losing all your solar to deaths.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:20 pm 
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But surely you guys saying that "with Gold Fish, never let solar go below 150 with purchases" also do that at some occasions? Like, you dont have Presidential Mask and want it, but buying it would drop your solar to 145? Youll have the 150 before you meet the next enemy anyway. Or do you stick to the "150+ or no buy!" Still?

I dont recommend purchasing things to drop to 0 solar, that would be pointless, but if you can get upgrade you want (and you had to go to the base anyway since no critters or droids around and you have 5%HP), and be back into 150 Solar in no time anyway, I dont mind being out of the dmg for few seconds... For me the "keep solar above this"-limit is 100-150 (and for dmg upgr even lower), depending on the importance of the thing I want.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Yes, you can buy Presidential Mask at that point, precisely for the reason you mention, but being only 10 Solar short of 150 after having already spent 150 Solar for the actual upgrade is no different to being 10 Solar short of 300 (i.e. at 290). You'd wait for a few seconds in base and then pick up Bag Full of Gold Fish and have its full effects forever, if it were a normal upgrade.

Whatever flexibility that offers a player is so needlessly unusable that it's complexity for its own sake.

There exists no situation in which the ability to dip into that 150 Solar used to make the upgrade work could offer realistic strategic advantage, because by doing so you lose the advantage of BFoGF. You are effectively spending money that you don't have.

If you could do that and gain from it, I'd be at the bank in seconds. I'd be taking out billions and billions (credit score notwithstanding) in loans and running away to Switzerland at the speed of sodding light.

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Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:48 pm 
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"Whatever flexibility that offers a player is so needlessly unusable that it's complexity for its own sake."

Yeah, this argument I agree with though, while I dont fully agree with the deceptive part of it. From game design perspective, its overly complex upgrade compared to others, that requires mathematical calculations at times, when other upgrades do not. However, I think that character-wise it fits Vinnie pretty well, and since I am a filthy casual fun loving player, I approve uppgrades made inthis way. So that they fot the character in some way, even though the gameplay mechanixs might be questionable.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:27 am 
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IsoKoala wrote:
But surely you guys saying that "with Gold Fish, never let solar go below 150 with purchases" also do that at some occasions? Like, you dont have Presidential Mask and want it, but buying it would drop your solar to 145? Youll have the 150 before you meet the next enemy anyway. Or do you stick to the "150+ or no buy!" Still?

If you have 275 solar and you buy Pills, going down to 145 solar, then you no longer have Goldfish.

For the duration of the next five solar, you do not have Goldfish. The upgrade does not exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Damn, I spent 10 solar too much and no longer have bag of goldfish... too bad solar doesn't literally -exist- as floating cubes randomly above the floor.... upgrade is ruined.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie?
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:42 pm 
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xelrog completely skipping what's roaming in a Moba


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