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 Post subject: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:56 am 
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I don't see a lot of recent penny related talk. I want to see what people think. I will sum up what I think of penny right now. Suggesting but the bare minimum of changes.

penny history
I'm going to start off with some data. If I get any of this wrong, feel free to correct me down below. I'll edit the post. These are major nerfs/ buffs and other changes mainly.

Death lens. 225 -> to 200 damage. Split in two stages priced 320 total.
Pulse used to be able to hit the ridiculous amount of 870 damage maximum before the level update.
Heart shaped net. Buffed. 1 charge pulse resets cool down to one second =>. 5.5/4/2.5/1 second cool down pulse. 4/3/2/1 charges.
Bug jars. Price increase from 180 -> 230. Damage nerfed at first. Later buffed to 14%.
Silencing rock : 0.3 s per charge => 0.2
Chicken lunchbox. Amplify 15% => 10% => 12%

Bike chain. Price nerf to 160 a stage? Damage nerf to 11%
Big bang horn. Merged into one stage. Stun buffed to 0.3 for 200 solar? 0.1 per stage prior?

Nine tails badge. 5% per charge => 4% per charge.
Herring snack badge. Nerfed to 40 health per charge. Price increased to 190.
Cookie monster badge. No longer affects droids. Damage nerf to 8% per charge.
Treasure map. 16% -> 12%
I think her base speed may have been nerfed along the way too. Hard to tell since a few nauts had been slowed tremendously unintentionally in the past. Creating a really slow penny, Vinnie. And a few others.

thoughts

Spider collector badge: I'm personally not a fan of this item. I feel like the long range playstyle of pushing and harassing with it (bad harass at that.) doesn't really fit penny's playstyle. You get incentivized not to spend charges. And to keep a distance instead of engaging. On top of that this item has immediately been nerfed harshly with the cookie badge nerf and the treasure hunter nerf. Making it even more fit for harassing. I feel like the harsh response to the admittedly strong pushing power of this item, has affected penny negatively overall.

Treasure hunter badge : I really feel the nerf here. It is a great item for recharging quickly in a pinch.

Death lens. : I can feel the Nerf harshly. It's an amazing item for comboing. Focusing single targets. And finishing off kills. However i don't like that it is two stages. Especially with a lot of other items in the pulse row being expensive already.

Herring snack badge : Still great. More hp overall. Saves in a pinch.dot. Etc.

Heart shaped net : Love this item. Gives penny a fighting chance when out of charges or low on them. Damage is a bit on the low side making it hard to deter enemies with it. Hard to keep chaining hits when you cant move freely or lack scout binoculars. I'd love to see a small change implemented where heart shaped net increases the damage of a one charge pulse. But might be too strong. Another issue with the net is that staying at one charge is risky. You could try to save up for a big pulse or pounce after all. Making it less desirable unless you want the flat cd reduction of 1.5

Silence rock : Could be better. Can easily interrupt timing or save penny. Used to be quite strong with heart shaped net. Continuously denying people their abilities. Lower charge pulse do however have such a low silence most people don't notice it unless you time it perfectly.


overall opinion.

Having played many games with penny and tried different playstyles. Whilst seeing the game and the character evolve...

I feel like some games penny is still too strong. Burst build being one of the most powerful. Where one pushes for combo items such as greyman group and zurian mechanic. Against certain nauts you can rack up kills like it is nothing if you're aggressive.

Her mid to early game is generally best. I find that her damage is great early. Easily allowing her to take out targets. However later game it doesn't scale well. Penny becomes fully dependant on her team to weaken and secure kills. And has to be a lot more careful about getting killed. There are less turrets to abuse.

I feel like the charge system often kills penny momentum. No, it's fine in the chase or during a fight. It's recharging in between that is often difficult. Certain enemies can easily zone you. Keeping you from recharging, vulnerabe due to being melee. This can often lead in penny being a lot less useful during teamfights. Only able to pull off a weak stun or amplify the enemies. It also makes her an easy target to be picked off. I feel like if there were alternative ways to deal damage on low/no charge, she could be more flexible.

I think penny could be slightly faster. She feels vey average even with boots. Maybe buff the base speed a tiny bit and Nerf nine tails as compensation?

Some games penny feels incredibly useless. Like when fighting large area denial.if she cant reach any source of charges she has to go base often. This makes other assassins much more useful in my opinion. I don't really like the idea of charges slowly generating as it can easily throw off heart timing. Or the use of tiny 1 charge pounces. But I would still be nice to have some alternative way on the frontline to recharge. I still think pulse is her best ability, as well as the capacity of damaging an entire team instead of just one naut like other assasins. Let me know what you think? Maybe landing a lens immediately gives you another much weaker shot free of charge mayhaps even weaker than claw. Naturally hitting a pulse would reset the damage. Could be a change to spider badge too, but I feel that would get complicated fast.

I've found that penny works best with teams of gankers and dashers. Froggy, swiggings and the like. However you cab also just harass nauts and raid their creeps consistently to keep them pressured. So she can work well with nauts that can push well. Enabling them to do so. I've also found that skollsir and clunk can be great. If you knock enemies into them. You don't even really need stunt helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:31 am 
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Penny is aight, the issue with her is when you can't do plays because of matchups, you just go gunpenny and play the waveclear game which is something not a lot of "assassins" can afford (qitara and ksenia expose themselves p hard by proxying droid waves), but is also rather boring.

Her kit is super strong and flexible while having a neat diversity. I don't think she should be touched, rather the meta needing to be touched first.


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:23 am 
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Mr Nutz jr wrote:
Penny is aight, the issue with her is when you can't do plays because of matchups, you just go gunpenny and play the waveclear game which is something not a lot of "assassins" can afford (qitara and ksenia expose themselves p hard by proxying droid waves), but is also rather boring.

Her kit is super strong and flexible while having a neat diversity. I don't think she should be touched, rather the meta needing to be touched first.


Can't agree more that the current meta is rather harsh on el penny. She's been part of the meta plenty in the past though. I just like discussing stuff, for the sake of discussing.


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:24 pm 
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bring claw back to its former glory


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:03 am 
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kathy wrote:
bring claw back to its former glory


no u


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:51 am 
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the good old days when penny could melt turrets faster than dedicated pushers

the good old days of no xp and damage rushing


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Playing Penny again she still has the same power level. The issue is that she has far less room for error.
Yes I can still absolutely demolish a team as Penny, but I have no pushing power and die to any mid-size burst. I could play Penny, or I could just play Leon and have pushing power, sustain, and a much stronger escape.

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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:59 pm 
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GuyBrush wrote:
Playing Penny again she still has the same power level. The issue is that she has far less room for error.
Yes I can still absolutely demolish a team as Penny, but I have no pushing power and die to any mid-size burst. I could play Penny, or I could just play Leon and have pushing power, sustain, and a much stronger escape.

I can second this.

Mr Nutz jr wrote:
Penny is aight, the issue with her is when you can't do plays because of matchups, you just go gunpenny and play the waveclear game which is something not a lot of "assassins" can afford (qitara and ksenia expose themselves p hard by proxying droid waves), but is also rather boring.

Her kit is super strong and flexible while having a neat diversity. I don't think she should be touched, rather the meta needing to be touched first.


The real value of Spiderbird is (IMO) that it gives you a ranged poking tool that you can use to do chip damage while you wait for your opening or get into position. It's also really good for poking turrets without risking instant death when the enemy team arrives.
It's balanced out by the fact that it's pretty much useless against faster enemies, who can basically outrun the bullets.

On the other side of things, does anybody still use Herring Snack badge?
While on her introduction it was definitely overbearing, after it got nerfed it seemed to me to be woefully inadequate as a sustain option, considering you were giving up an AA slot _and_ charges to get it working.

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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:29 am 
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Quote:
The real value of Spiderbird is (IMO) that it gives you a ranged poking tool that you can use to do chip damage while you wait for your opening or get into position. It's also really good for poking turrets without risking instant death when the enemy team arrives.


Her turret cheesing has been vastly reduced since cookie badge no longer works on structures. In term of poking, that's arguably right and also wrong, the projectile is easier to read than most ranged AAs in the game and requires cookie and/or SSS to do meaningful poke damage, good for poking in small spoon of situations.

Quote:
On the other side of things, does anybody still use Herring Snack badge?


Herring is fine.


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 Post subject: Re: thoughts on penny?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:14 pm 
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GuyBrush wrote:
Playing Penny again she still has the same power level. The issue is that she has far less room for error.
Yes I can still absolutely demolish a team as Penny, but I have no pushing power and die to any mid-size burst. I could play Penny, or I could just play Leon and have pushing power, sustain, and a much stronger escape.


Except if the enemy team played it smart, they would just stall through the earlygame to make Penny obsolete compared to other nauts like Coco.
Stalling like this was not really possible before when Penny was still a top tier naut, I think this is mostly because of her AA damage nerfs and the current meta being so focused around pushing/stalling.
As people said before, the meta picks can also completely hard counter her making Penny a tough pick (Sentry, Smiles etc).

She even has trouble beating most DPS/stall nauts like Lonestar because of their droid clearing.
The current meta doesn't rely on teamfights all that much but mostly pushing.

I wouldn't recommend buffs though,since the moment brawling/teamfights become more important she'll be a good naut again.
Let's just leave her be and focus on the meta picks, I think nauts like Deadlift, Sentry and Smiles are more in need of some changes (mostly design wise, game defining abilities with no downsides).

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