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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Jas123c wrote:
While the mechanic might be insignificant, it does have more benefits then downsides imo. I personally don't see any downsides to the healing AA mechanic, Sorry Kimkitsune but I don't agree with your cons or the reasoning behind it.

You haven't actually given any benefits beyond a vague 'it makes it more interesting'. And a couple below that I'll be making an attempt to refute.

You also haven't actually challenged any of the points I've made directly. If my reasoning is correct, please correct it. Don't simply tell me I'm wrong and then refuse to explain yourself.

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As I said before, I don't think it's a bad thing that the heal is virtually useless up close. It adds to his positioning skill and increases build diversity slightly.

You have multiple people - myself included - telling you that it does the opposite.
Euphoric Thoughts is so much more consistent compared to standard healing that the more traditional build is borderline useless.

If his mechanics worked as they should then Happy Thoughts should easily outperform Euphoric in terms of real HpS, on the simple logic that ET is a pocket medic upgrade whereas to really make use of HT, Voltar has to stay in a very specific Goldilocks Zone that neither gimps his heals nor prevents him from using Healbot effectively as a response (to say nothing of making his drones effective).


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Lot's of different ways of playing Voltar, yet I don't think a 'outhealing the enemies direct damage strategy' would be very effective. I mostly try to heal my teammates back to an acceptable amount outside of teamfights, and this can be done while rotating. This way you can do other things during this time, also it's good to control the jungle on most maps even if you don't need the healing.


Voltar should not under any circumstances outheal incoming damage, barring some really serious snowballing. Please do not make me repeat this statement again.
Voltar's AA heal serves to increase his teammates' Effective Hitpoints, by replacing some of the damage that's being done to them. This serves to help tanks take hits Voltar himself cannot.
This is another reason why ET is outright superior to HT right now: the fact that the heal keeps working even when Voltar is separated from his target should be the main reason to use it, but the fact that the range mechanic makes his standard healing inconsistent makes the ET-Eyedrops build overwhelmingly superior.


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How is the way of using it related to when you are using it? Healing for as much as possible while standing still or walking around, do add to the skillceiling somewhat.
This can be tricky to get right since the projectile speed is a bit weird with wall colision.


I don't mean to be rude, but... Have you ever actually played Voltar as a dedicated medic?
Positioning outside of combat is an utterly trivial form of 'challenge'.

When you have Ted's Airstrike about to go off directly behind you, a Skolldir barreling down on you from the front, a Penny trying to maneuver overhead to set him up, and a pair of teammates who both require your attention for healing... This type of challenge is the sort that makes or breaks Voltar's ability to succeed on a team.

Voltar's position is going to be dictated by the need to hold the formation, the need to not get hit by any of the initiation moves his opponents are throwing at him, and the need to cast Healbot's knockback if he thinks the team is about to be compromised.

Under these circumstances, the range mechanic is doing nothing but gimping Voltar's AA, because it simply isn't reasonable to expect the player to be able to do all of that while staying in the Goldilocks Zone.

Now, the million dollar question: which of these secnarios do you think describes a critical point in the flow of the match?

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Glad you brought this up, people often mistake healing and support as the same thing. Voltar can be an excellent support to his team by proper usage of his knockbacks, he can disposition enemies and prevent teammates from dying with it.
I see the healing as an added bonus to his support, and I'm glad it's not the only thing Voltar has going for him. Believe me we do not want to go back to the Voltar train days when healing was his only purpose. :thumb:


I've played Voltar since long before the rework - his AA heal is part of what makes him unique, it's what it's been balanced around (just look at the numbers), and it's part of the kit you have to use to properly support your team.

His AA does damage to fix the problem of him not being able to clear droids reliably otherwise, and would generally be extremely solar-starved without it. In the old days his Solar income was based purely around his ability to heal; once this mechanic was removed (along with his ability to heal droids) his power scaling fell through the floor, and the damage was added at base largely to fix this.

That's one of the main reasons its damage is so underwhelming, and why only one of the upgrades on the row is an exclusively offensive one.

His AA's base maximum healing value is identical to his base damage value. The only reason it's even possible to claim that the primary distinguishing feature of his AA is 'a bonus' is because the range-based power mechanic severely gimps its ability to heal.

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On a side node, you could even consider bombshell as a support option because of the area control it gives. I really like how much synergy it has with his knockback, it's crazy how much the darkmattershots change did for Voltar.


It gives next to none; it's a Yuri Mine without the benefit of there being a lot of them to choke an area with. In terms of area denial it's honestly pretty weak.

In practical purposes what it serves to do is force characters that rely on getting close to Healbot to either burst down healbot or take a massive amount of damage to the face. You can also use it to set traps and/or help push, but its single biggest utility is providing a surprise burst at the end of healbot after dropping it on top of enemies trying to play footsie with you.

And boy howdy is it ever fun to use on the likes of Nibbs and Leon... :shady:

Quote:
I'd like you to tell me how a dedicated support is supposed to be played. :CocoWink:


Simply put, a dedicated support is a character that spends as much of their attention as possible making sure that their teammates are, well, supported. Healing them when they are injured, using knockback to stuff gank/nuke attempts, and generally helping to facilitate whatever it is their character is trying to do.

Voltar is the character that comes closest to filling this role, because he's the only character with a kit geared around it. Healbot and TSW can both be used at base to heal allies.

His drones are unique in that they deal DPS to targets while Volt's own attention is potentially focused elsewhere.

Simply put, while I am all for having new ways of playing Voltar and increasing his versatility, I see no reason why the old way - the way that has always been unique to him - has to get the axe, especially when it's for an arbitrary mechanic like the range-based power gimmick.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:58 pm 
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as i said in xelrog's thread. his AA mechanics are very interesting and, if anything, should be exaggerated, not eliminated.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Here's a good tip:

If you can't immediately identify the benefits (and applications) of any particular mechanic, chances are it's a gimmick that can be done without.

See: Voltar.


you're framing a really lame argument here. what's the benefit of TNT being thrown in an arc? what's the benefit of clunk damaging himself when he explodes?


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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:12 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
you're framing a really lame argument here. what's the benefit of TNT being thrown in an arc? what's the benefit of clunk damaging himself when he explodes?

Arching TNT is a function of its gravity affected nature, which emphasises its vertical power at the expense of its horizontal pressure. Very important in a game that focuses on the verticality of mobility. It also ties in with Lonestar's impressive vertical mobility, and counter-balances for Bull's purely horizontal nature.

Explode's self-damage balances some of the ability's raw power by exacerbating how effective retaliation is against the ability, especially if it is missed or otherwise countered.

"Benefit" isn't solely from the user's point of view, but also something to consider from the opponents' perspectives, too. It suppose it could've been worded better as "advantages/disadvantages", if you feel that's more universal.

As for Voltar's ranged mechanic, the only real usage of the mechanic that I can see is how it puts (far too much) emphasis on maintaining a very specific—and variable, with upgrades—distance. This, however, is at odds with his general nature of a healer, and a slowly accelerating one at that, on top of its anti-synergy with Healbot.

Abilities shouldn't have anti-synergy unless there's a very good reason for it. Something's mechanic complexity cannot self-justify.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:30 am 
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idk,i think if you combine all his weird distance rules with his hover jump, you have a pretty interesting character. you could say that his AA distance rule works against heal bot, but really it's just about finding sweet spots and reading how the field will look 2 seconds from now to minmax.


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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:48 am 
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Don't get me wrong: I'm not opposed to the design so much as I don't think it meshes well with how unresponsive Voltar's movement is. Because of the importance of good positioning with him (more so than with other 'Nauts), the fact that he's so floaty and slow to accelerate makes it feel like a chore to use.

The challenge should come from perfecting his positioning, not from actually positioning him in the first place. Overwatch's Mercy is a stunning example of how well-designed a good, position-dependent character can be.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:04 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
idk,i think if you combine all his weird distance rules with his hover jump, you have a pretty interesting character. you could say that his AA distance rule works against heal bot, but really it's just about finding sweet spots and reading how the field will look 2 seconds from now to minmax.


If he's hovering, it works against drones because he's not only in an awkward position to hit people with suicide drones, but most viable targets for drone autofire DPS are also going to be out of range - unless you're close enough to your allies that the hovering isn't really helping increase his AA damage.

More importantly, though, there are five problems with this strategy.
  • Voltar is constantly losing altitude while falling. This means that you still have to be constantly tweaking his position to maintain the best distance.
  • Voltar's only evasive abilities are his jump and his ability to quick-stop in mid-air as a form of juking. If you're hovering above the fight, you've already effectively removed both of your evasive options.
  • Voltar's acceleration and deceleration are even worse when hovering.
  • Unless your allies can hover as well, Voltar is vulnerable to getting sniped by characters such as anyone with a dash, Ted, or Rocco.
  • It's very dependent on the map. Sorona gives a lot of space for hovering, Aguillion practically none. Ribbit and 205 have sections where it's viable and others where it isn't.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the design so much as I don't think it meshes well with how unresponsive Voltar's movement is. Because of the importance of good positioning with him (more so than with other 'Nauts), the fact that he's so floaty and slow to accelerate makes it feel like a chore to use.

The challenge should come from perfecting his positioning, not from actually positioning him in the first place. Overwatch's Mercy is a stunning example of how well-designed a good, position-dependent character can be.


I am opposed to the range-power design.
Simply put, there's no way to have this mechanic on a healing AA that doesn't explicitly punish Voltar, because his healing walks such a fine gradient between 'underwhelming', 'useful', and 'game-breaking'.
The most his AA can ever reasonably heal for is 'just about enough'. If his heal is ever too strong then the game gets flooded with Derpl-Voltar pair-ups and everyone winds up miserable.

If Voltar is supposed to be able to actually function in any reasonable capacity he has to have some ability to chose where he's positioned without the game arbitrarily punishing him with lowered output.

This is why I suggested moving it to damage; if people want Voltar's AA to have an output that is for all intents and purposes random, putting it on damage gives a lot more room to play with the numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:37 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
idk,i think if you combine all his weird distance rules with his hover jump, you have a pretty interesting character.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

There's no rocket science to my personal standpoint. When I'm playing Voltar and getting crappy heals because I need to be close to my team (as the situation/enemy teamcomp/whatever demands), I'm not having fun. When an enemy eats my heal or an ally eats my damage AA, I'm not having fun. I want my video game to be fun, simple as that. People like fun games.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:35 pm 
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well it's fun to me :P

also, i don't really build drones for DPS, which probably sways my opinion quite a bit. warpgate/weaponized hull/dark matter shots are the only way i'd ever consider playing him. maybe toss out dark matter for something else if kb isn't needed that match


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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:58 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
well it's fun to me :P


Here's the most important thing: removing the mechanic doesn't hurt your playstyle.
It does hurt folks like me and Xelrog, who prefer a more 'Old School' version of Voltar.

How does the fact that you (and by extension the teammate relying on your AA heal) will be punished for deviating from that playstyle make the game more fun?

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:27 am 
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i like playing characters that have interesting AA mechanics that require a fair amount of nuance and skill to maximize. Doubly so if they have interesting jumping mechanics.

I dislike characters where i can turn my brain off and tape down the AA button.

Not that these are things balance decisions should be made against...just saying :)

I'd still like to see his AA should be even more exaggerated into a binary hi/lo power based on range. Right now it's mushy af. i think i'm in the minority here though :shady:


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