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 Post subject: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Why does Yuri still have a full CC immunity bubble?
Flash forward with base bubble makes it tricky enough to chase or get away from a Yuri bubble, yet with immunity it becomes a get out of jail free card.

This is especially problematic for Nauts that rely on CC to not get screwed over by bubble, and is a bad form of hard countering them with a single upgrade. (Think about Voltar, Yoolip, Scoop and to a lesser extent Gnaw, Ted and Lonestar)
It's really dumb that you can bubble straight in vs most nauts with immunity, and they're forced to get away from bubble or die if they aren't able to.
Yes this is how bubble has always worked. But ever since the laser buffs it has become so much easier for Yuri to do the necessary damage, that bubble isn't really used as a support ability anymore. For example Ksenia almost always loses a 1v1 with Yuri in bubble, while in the past Ksenia was one of the best counters to Yuri.

I'd much rather make it a CC reduction upgrade instead of a full immunity, maybe make his hitbox smaller since it's huge which makes it very hard to dodge the CC from the nauts above otherwise.
I believe Lukopal once suggested to make it a 50% CC reduction for any friendly in the bubble (including Yuri).

Another idea would be to make it so projectiles aren't effected by the timeslow, so the entire bubble has more counter play but this idea is a bit extreme. And would probably create too much counter play to bubble.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 pm 
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Projectiles being slowed by time warp is one of the dumbest things about the ability because it also serves as a psuedo shield against them, allowing him to escape even easier than it already is. Ayla can never kill a fleeing yuri because the eye is never going to connect, same with hammer, rocket, hook etc etc. I've always thought time warp should only slow/speedup naut entities, not everything.

But really why does CC immunity exist on any character, other than to completely tableflip matchups? Swigs vs skolldir is so much in skol's favor, yet CC hook just laughs at it giving him safe hooks every time. Vinnie vs smiles is in smiles' favor, yet with CC immunity smiles isn't even a character anymore. It's not just yuri.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:07 am 
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On no, the person who loves CC hates anything that ignores CC, who'd of guessed. Lets start buffing Sentry while youre here.

Seriously out of all characters that have it, Yuri doesn't need it. Time Warp is already an amazing ability and with upgrades, one of the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:22 am 
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How dare Sam be so audacious as to have an opinion.

On-topic: kill the obnoxious bubble.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:27 am 
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Yuri's bubble gives de facto immunity to melee 'nauts, any projectile that isn't moving at mach 1, and anything that has some kind of wind-up or requires continuous application to actually work, simply by virtue of the Time Warp mechanics.

It even slows DoT, as if Bananaphone and Healbubble didn't already effectively negate it.

Yuri doesn't need an upgrade to completely negate the one thing that might actually offer a counter to his Bubble O' Herpes - especially when even without it he can still buy BKM.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:18 am 
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I wasn't expecting so many people to agree with me on immunity bubble being problematic. :derp:
Regardless what do you guys think is the best way of fixing the issue without butchering Yuri?
Would my suggested ideas work, or would Yuri need buffs in other places to keep him viable?
Yuri has had a lot of nerfs over the years, yet somehow he randomly becomes top tier every now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:04 am 
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Jas123c wrote:
I'd much rather make it a CC reduction upgrade instead of a full immunity, maybe make his hitbox smaller since it's huge which makes it very hard to dodge the CC from the nauts above otherwise.
I believe Lukopal once suggested to make it a 50% CC reduction for any friendly in the bubble (including Yuri).

I do like these ideas, full CC immunity on Yuri is very unhealthy with all the bulk buffs he's gotten over this time. Meanwhile team CC resist of some percent keeps the support nature of the skill front and centre instead of being the solo manmode skill it plays out as. A hitbox shrink, so long as his slipperiness is also tweaked, would make him a more healthy character to play as.

Jas123c wrote:
Another idea would be to make it so projectiles aren't effected by the timeslow, so the entire bubble has more counter play but this idea is a bit extreme. And would probably create too much counter play to bubble.

The main issue with this is the projectile effect is hardcoded (so just removing it would affect both Rae and Max), and it can be kind of hard to get a new bool for this added to the engine. It seems like an odd nerf to me but if it's what people agree is the issue then I don't see why not though.

Jas123c wrote:
Yuri has had a lot of nerfs over the years, yet somehow he randomly becomes top tier every now and then.

He's had a lot of nerfs but also a lot of buffs, especially in regards to overall bulk. His Mines certainly do a lot less damage than before unless you go full Carpet but in exchange he has a lot of synergistic bulk items which I feel has exacerbated the ever-present slipperiness of an FF Warp.

I don't think losing CC immunity would make him bad enough to need counter-buffs but in the event he does need them you could probably give some QOL tweaks like moving the mine spawn further from his body (though shrinking his hitbox would also do this), which would make him more accessible for new players and make Carpet less of a crapshoot with the P2P networking. That way if a solo monkey wants to carry he can go full damage and bop people instead of just building raw bulk and playing passive with his team.

Sam! wrote:
But really why does CC immunity exist on any character, other than to completely tableflip matchups? Swigs vs skolldir is so much in skol's favor, yet CC hook just laughs at it giving him safe hooks every time. Vinnie vs smiles is in smiles' favor, yet with CC immunity smiles isn't even a character anymore. It's not just yuri.

I suppose but this more suggests that lengthy full CC stops are problematic rather than suggesting that Yuri's is fine. Not saying that you mean to suggest Yuri's is okay though.

S_Fits wrote:
On no, the person who loves CC hates anything that ignores CC, who'd of guessed. Lets start buffing Sentry while youre here.

Let's not do this, the targeting is rather unnecessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:36 am 
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I agree with Sam here, full cc immunity in general is unhealthy. It's implementation is inconsistent too. Qitara gets gravity and time slow immunity but no cocoon immunity, derpl gets all immunity and others just immunity without any of the above. Why is it you can bubble during a tether and break free, but can't break during a snare.

I'd much rather see bubble reworked into a team cc reduction. Also make it so immunity doesn't break tethers after they are applied.


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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Just do team CC resistance or something I guess. Not going to be so useful to apply to teammates on any 1-hit long CC's like traps because you're unlikely to be using bubble over a teammate when they hit it. It still helps Yuri though in any case. Will help more with more constantly applied CC like vengeance slow I suppose. Will possibly partially overlap with Flash Forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Full CC immunity works in a game based around counters.

Awesomenauts is not a game based around counters.

Issue detected.

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