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 Post subject: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:52 am 
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some random thoughts about a handful of character in no particular order -

skree - totem should be for cutting off enemies, not stopping a push in its tracks. (separate) ideas: 1. droids should do 4x damage to totem, 2. totem should spawn at 50% hp & regenerate the remaining 50% hp over a second or so (could give it a max hp buff to compensate or reduce throw windup time perhaps). 3. piercing AA upgrades should pierce totem

ayla - jawbreakers is pretty broken with her ability to switch rage on/off so quickly and I feel like it turns her into a clunk divebomb character trying to catch people off guard. i think the fact that it triggers off of evil eye merely being fired and can be sat on forever is pretty dumb. not sure what i'd change here. possibly have the pull time-out after 5 seconds? idk

chucho - retracting spikes fender. the upgrade is overloaded. why does it do damage AND knockback for $180? also the knockback should scale based on chucho's speed or the effect should be cancelled if he switches directions mid boost. the ability to do crossup knockback outclasses just about every other knockback ability/upgrade in the game.

genji - what if coccooned players had collision? thinking of the instakill that happens when derpl puts a snare on top of you.

rocco - can we please remove the little AOE thing his AA does? it's ok for some characters to not be good at clearing droids, and i'd rather see him get a counter-buff elsewhere to encourage him to be more of a pvp-er instead of a standback-and-stall-er.

rocket - please do something with this naut. i'm just going to throw out some crazy ideas that i've barely put much thought into:
1. make lazer trap's prongs 2.5x longer, reduce the spin speed quite a bit. also it now stays on the field for 30 seconds and is killable.
2. i think there was a beta change where his Rocket Launch and Charged Salvo were connected. Bring this back, seriously gimp his normal jump (or even remove it), and have Rocket Launch actually be the way he is supposed to get around. adjust damage values as required


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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:34 pm 
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- Skree is a weird character honestly, I'm all for nerfs on him because I think he's a stupid character which is overloaded in general but totem isn't his main issue. His safety net saw damage and stupid chaining aa should be fixed before totem as they are his main offenders. When it comes to droid clearing honestly just make his saw do even less to droids, it will still easily clear a lane but just not as quick.

- I'm not defending it but jawbreakers are a product of the community butchering Ayla's survivability so she kinda had to be a solo deathball to stay relevant. I'd prefer her to have hp buffs so rage builds are just as viable as eye builds but I doubt it'd happen.

- Agreed, I'd prefer to see this upgrade in the 220 area. It'll still be pretty much mandatory but a little harder to get to. Besides it's not hard for Chucho to get solar at all anyway since he doesn't commit to kills and wipes lanes out in seconds.

- A good Derpl will still cocoon you because of bumpsnaring. Collision would also make it so in small areas Genji would probably get pinned against the wall by cocoon.

- I agree on making Rocco better also, but honestly the reason he's not good is because the meta doesn't support dps characters so you can't overload him without it being obnoxiously broken. It'd probably be better to tweak the game to make him viable instead, but until that happens the aoe is nice as he at least can do something in game related to his role.

- My original thought process for Rocket was that he'd have an awful jump but when his aa is fully charged he'd use it to rocket jump, (ala tf2) but obviously that wasn't the case. Rocket is one of the few characters that needs a total rework, as he is now if you buff him he becomes a cancerous mess with free escapes. If you give him a rework with original abilities, (not just a bigger missile and a spinning line) then you have the potential for a really cool character focused around mobility.

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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:06 am 
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Slevens wrote:
- My original thought process for Rocket was that he'd have an awful jump but when his aa is fully charged he'd use it to rocket jump, (ala tf2) but obviously that wasn't the case. Rocket is one of the few characters that needs a total rework, as he is now if you buff him he becomes a cancerous mess with free escapes. If you give him a rework with original abilities, (not just a bigger missile and a spinning line) then you have the potential for a really cool character focused around mobility.


Replace laser with Snork's rotating balls. I suggested this before it was cool.
https://www.awesomenauts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=52190

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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:11 am 
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Again with the "i agree with slevens" bit, because honestly he makes very valid and good points I agree with.

Skree's problems are generally with saw and aa, not totem; it can be annoying with how it stops a push, but it's a good alternative to combat very tanky or push heavy comps as well. Making it just able to cut off enemies or implementing any of the changes you suggested will make it severely weak and limited in terms of practicality.

Ugh jawbreakers. I suggested plenty of things to fix ayla's eye and rage roles a while back, and still stand by the fact that she gets outclassed by literally almost every other burst in the game and it's sad. That combined with her poor survivability (especially in the face of cc) and her need to be at low hp values to do significant eye dmg made her into whatever current meta this is where you rush DoT and jawbreakers and just dive bomb. It's not fun to play and it's not fun to fight honestly, and changing her base eye values (including the scaled ones) and jawbreakers itself would help her out a lot without her relying on stupid gimmicks or trying to be at 15% HP values just to be as useful as half the cast is at any HP. She hasn't felt like a glass cannon or whatever her designed character was supposed to be for quite a while now, with dis-synergised AoE dmg yet nerfed sustain and shields that oftentimes get you killed for trying to contribute to dmg output if you're not using eye DoT or disorienting the enemies otherwise. It just feels moreover clunky than useful, moreso when you have to 1v1 with rage and the enemy's aa out dpses your dmg-based move, making you want to rush eye even more so you can reliably finish.

Friendly reminder that chucho can still spam ramona on the turret and then mount, dismount, and repeat to push. Ronma never fixed that despite it getting almost unanimous support and how cheese it feels to fight against, given it provides extra turret damage and free HP tanking.

Rocco needs that AoE for droids to be even relevant in the current situation; he kind of struggles given a lot of the cast does what he does better and PS is easier to dodge at far intervals so he can't secure kills at a distance as well as someone like chucho. He's not useless tho, and I think for what it's worth he does an okay job of contribution, especially with maxed vengeance applying constant cc and dmg to assist any teammates or harass the enemy entirely.

Rocket does need a lot of work, given he just gets free dmg as it is right now. Really don't want to make this post any more of a wall than it's already become, so that can go in a separate thread tbh.

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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:43 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
some random thoughts about a handful of character in no particular order -

skree - totem should be for cutting off enemies, not stopping a push in its tracks. (separate) ideas: 1. droids should do 4x damage to totem, 2. totem should spawn at 50% hp & regenerate the remaining 50% hp over a second or so (could give it a max hp buff to compensate or reduce throw windup time perhaps). 3. piercing AA upgrades should pierce totem

I agree that stalling is dumb and very easy as Skree, yet I don't think the problem is Skree let alone his totem. I'd much rather give a speed buff to droids to make split pushing easier, which may help prevent stalling.

ayla - jawbreakers is pretty broken with her ability to switch rage on/off so quickly and I feel like it turns her into a clunk divebomb character trying to catch people off guard. i think the fact that it triggers off of evil eye merely being fired and can be sat on forever is pretty dumb. not sure what i'd change here. possibly have the pull time-out after 5 seconds? idk

It's a strong effect and can be annoying to play against, yet I don't feel it's worthy of a nerf. I think it's a good upgrade but only if you can use it well which adds skill to an otherwise dumb character. If Ayla needs nerfs I'd much rather nerf her EE.

chucho - retracting spikes fender. the upgrade is overloaded. why does it do damage AND knockback for $180? also the knockback should scale based on chucho's speed or the effect should be cancelled if he switches directions mid boost. the ability to do crossup knockback outclasses just about every other knockback ability/upgrade in the game.

Yea this upgrade is basically as cost efficient as nitro muffler. it's slightly harder to hit though and the knockback doesn't have a snare or stun so you can jump to cancel the kb. Regardless it could probably do with a nerf. The reason Chucho is so strong is the amount of different damage upgrades he has.

genji - what if coccooned players had collision? thinking of the instakill that happens when derpl puts a snare on top of you.

I don't see why this would be necessary, it would be annoying for the Genji especially in tight areas, and I don't think it prevents a Derpl from snaring the cocoon.

rocco - can we please remove the little AOE thing his AA does? it's ok for some characters to not be good at clearing droids, and i'd rather see him get a counter-buff elsewhere to encourage him to be more of a pvp-er instead of a standback-and-stall-er.

I didn't agree with this buff in the first place, yet Rocco needed a small buff, I'd rather see him get a different buff possibly to vengeance CD.

rocket - please do something with this naut. i'm just going to throw out some crazy ideas that i've barely put much thought into:
1. make lazer trap's prongs 2.5x longer, reduce the spin speed quite a bit. also it now stays on the field for 30 seconds and is killable.
2. i think there was a beta change where his Rocket Launch and Charged Salvo were connected. Bring this back, seriously gimp his normal jump (or even remove it), and have Rocket Launch actually be the way he is supposed to get around. adjust damage values as required

Completely agree with what Slevens said, it's a wasted character with a flawed design. yet I doubt he'll get a rework anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:40 am 
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I don't really agree with any of then except for rocket, some others do make good points but not for the right reasons.

Skree - as many others started totem isn't a real problem, and honestly i don't feel like skree is a problem in current balance. There's nauts with stronger push, better damage and better sustain. Collapse chars like frog penny snork swiggins can fly past the totem. He's vulnerable to aa including melee. Skree's own aa is annoying but doesn't hit so hard.

Ayla - i agree that pull is a bit insane, but it's also one of the more interesting upgrades that raises the skill ceiling. The need to switch between rage and regular aa stance is the only way i can see ayla being interesting for both player and opponent. A bigger problem is the balance between rage and EE. It's hard to balance because there is a huge gap where some nauts are weak to EE and some are weak to rage. Underlying problem with melee dps is how you can go in first if you have to.

Since a very long time ppl gave used EE as an initiation instead of a finisher. The health stage mechanic is impactful but is slapped on a char that's not suited for it. Base slow along with upgrades like pull, slow, health stage removal and dot just further help ayla with initiation and help to hit rage ticks right after. You want to see if EE puts an enemy in danger before you risk to go in. You don't want to save EE and risk going into full health targets to maybe come out on top. It's more likely to miss rage without slow and even if you finish someone you are below 25% health without an escape. Sadly even at 5,5s cd it's not likely u get eye again in the end of a fight. When it does work at <%25 it deals too much damage imo. Mostly because it is often because Ayla gets rewarded for misplays earlier and a lucky escape can suddenly turn the tables.

Ayla was more suited for rage into EE in the past. Lifesteal rage. But people really didnt like playing VS this. In general for a melee to go in with a dps and no escape, you'd need so much sustain power that it will inevitably trip other balance and matchups where without tools like KB or speed there is nothing you can do to get ayla off.

I'd say add tiny sustain to rage and nerf eye dmg a little bit. Probably around 5% and 50 dmg max.

I'll maybe talk about the other chars later.


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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:11 am 
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gonna add one more to chucho i thought of yesterday - it often feels like his bike has too much HP. one simple solution -

bike now spawns at half it's current HP (600 > 300). it also now spawns with a 3 second long 300 HP Shield.


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 Post subject: Re: "Problems"
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:54 am 
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  • I'm okay with :redcheer: doing extra damage to Skree Totem. But like, 2x more. Not 4x. Totem should also take 4x damage from Turrets.
  • I do not play Ayla henceforth I can not comment. :aylaroll:
  • Spike Fender is a mixed bag but I do agree the ability to facerev someone for a bull push and damage is way too strong. The knockback at the very least should scale with movement. Would make for some interesting combos with windshield wipers.
  • Cocooned enemies don't have collision? :cocoon: That's dumb.
  • I was one of the biggest advocates for Rocco not getting an AoE. He's already an insane Brawler and it's okay for a character to be bad at pushing. (Especially if said character has access to CFGS.) With that being said Rocco was * tier before and currently he's still pretty bad. Really don't need to nerf an already bad character.
  • Rocket needs buffs yes. Waste of a character slot currently.

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