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 Post subject: Too much damage on some attacks; here's why
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:56 pm 
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I've come to realize the damage dealt by skills like explode and nuke are too high. From what I've seen people just pick characters like Clunk and Derpl for sheer damage, especially in the case of Clunk doing 800 damage(73% of cmdr rocket's hp) AND healing off the self-inflicted damage with explode + bite while he chips away at you with with missiles shreds rocket along with other nauts. While I get these are what the characters are for (Particularly Clunk) this is probably too much and is frankly overkill on what could reasonably be allowed for a naut to do. Heck, even one nuke is still 500 damage (45% of rocket's hp). I know these characters are a bit niche, but we should be addressing that alongside their ridiculous damage. I think just replacing Clunk's universal charger upgrade with 30% movement speed after exploding for 3 seconds and reducing base explode damage from 500 -> 400(still good because it's an AoE and he can heal it off.) while Derpl can get the same treatment on nuke while buffing his base movement speed by about 5%, so he has a reason to buy boots to encourage aggressive bump snare tactics which I honestly think make for more skillful and fair play than setting up snares in choke points and simply drop nuking people from above without using his kit to set up.

While there could be other ways of going about it, I think these would be a satisfying set of changes for the people playing against and as these characters alike. I just felt the need to suggest something for the problems I'm experiencing.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much damage on some attacks; here's why
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:09 am 
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Dinoman wrote:
I've come to realize the damage dealt by skills like explode and nuke are too high. From what I've seen people just pick characters like Clunk and Derpl for sheer damage, especially in the case of Clunk doing 800 damage(73% of cmdr rocket's hp) AND healing off the self-inflicted damage with explode + bite while he chips away at you with with missiles shreds rocket along with other nauts. While I get these are what the characters are for (Particularly Clunk) this is probably too much and is frankly overkill on what could reasonably be allowed for a naut to do. Heck, even one nuke is still 500 damage (45% of rocket's hp). I know these characters are a bit niche, but we should be addressing that alongside their ridiculous damage. I think just replacing Clunk's universal charger upgrade with 30% movement speed after exploding for 3 seconds and reducing base explode damage from 500 -> 400(still good because it's an AoE and he can heal it off.) while Derpl can get the same treatment on nuke while buffing his base movement speed by about 5%, so he has a reason to buy boots to encourage aggressive bump snare tactics which I honestly think make for more skillful and fair play than setting up snares in choke points and simply drop nuking people from above without using his kit to set up.

While there could be other ways of going about it, I think these would be a satisfying set of changes for the people playing against and as these characters alike. I just felt the need to suggest something for the problems I'm experiencing.

How about we don't nerf damage on an already weak naut by 20%? Derpl is pretty fair to play against. Bait out the nuke, pile in. Easy. Clunk can't move very sharply in any direction, and thus you can probably just jump out of explode upwards, and it's pretty easy to see when he wants a bitesplode.

And however you may see it, if you get dropnuked it's your fault. At any time you could look at the minimap and just walk away when you see derpl rock up to you. Getting a dropnuke on people who actually suspect it is rather hard. If both relied on setup more they'd just be flowcharty, even though I hate saying that.

It just sounds like you haven't found out the counters to these nauts yet. There's reasonable counterplay for both and neither are particularly strong atm.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much damage on some attacks; here's why
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:17 am 
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Uiomancant wrote:
How about we don't nerf damage on an already weak naut by 20%? Derpl is pretty fair to play against. Bait out the nuke, pile in. Easy. Clunk can't move very sharply in any direction, and thus you can probably just jump out of explode upwards, and it's pretty easy to see when he wants a bitesplode.


Clunk and Derpl can be problematic cause they are niche characters that hardcounter some other characters. Baiting out a facenuke or a bitesplode isn't just as simple as jumping around your opponent. I think you are referring to getting into the face and press abilties like cocoon, blessing, bull, vanish or dash to prevent being oneshot, which is different. Or simply sacrificing yourself for your team to win the overall teamfight.

So yeah I agree with the concern of the OP, however I don't agree with these fixes. It's simply not that easy. Since this game launched we've always balanced around 3 points. Ideally we want 1)every character to be original and different, 2)to be able to contest all other characters and 3)make them work in both a premade and SoloQ environment. I can tell you right now that this is impossible, but everyone has his own ideas on how it should be.

Clunk and Derpl share similar strengths and weaknesses. If we look at Clunk we know that he's always a threat when explode is still ready for use. Clunk needs to land his explode to be of any use. If 400 explode damage doesn't oneshot, then there is immediatly nothing clunk can do to progress a game in SoloQ environment. He's already slow and predictable, gets one chance maybe per minute, so if that stops working and his team plays badly... what will work? We also see that even with his ridiculous current damage and healing numbers he still gets shutdown from time to time again by his biggest offenders like ix, genji, lonestar, smiles cause you can always use knockback or shield to survive. On the other hand we also see that Clunk is a much bigger threat when he works together with initiation from leon or ix.

And that's literally what makes him a hardcounter, there are characters that will always work against him and never work against him.

So the fix that most people come up with: Just change the strengths and weaknesses, the core of the character. For example just give clunk more movement speed or missile dps for long fights? Well not exactly, cause people don't want that either. Clunk is seen as a slow tank sustain burst character and that doesn't really change. His base movement speed already started a lot of controversy where people get annoyed he moves as fast as most squishy nauts. Giving him another 30% boost? Ehh, no thanks cause I don't want to see Clunk flying around like Coco. It simply shows you can't have a big roster or original and different characters without creating hardcounters.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much damage on some attacks; here's why
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:14 pm 
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I hate balane principles that forget what the whole point of balancing a game is, this has been a pretty bad trend in Nauts where the cast is being more and more homogenised. Yes, a game where every Nauts has the exact same strengths and weaknesses would be more balanced, but it wouldn't be more fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much damage on some attacks; here's why
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:30 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
I hate balance principles that forget what the whole point of balancing a game is, this has been a pretty bad trend in Nauts where the cast is being more and more homogenised. Yes, a game where every Nauts has the exact same strengths and weaknesses would be more balanced, but it wouldn't be more fun.


Exactly, that's what I was trying to say. It's not more fun to have every character be the same, but then people need to accept that hardcounters exist and that even if you play perfect you aren't gonna win every game. I personally get more annoyed that the character selection is a black box and there aren't drafts.

You can look at a good mix of power and reliability though. Most characters with the role of support or harasser are way easier to perform well with than the role or brawler. This should be a difference in upgrades instead. Some characters do have these upgrades, like for frog i won't recommend hammer pants, tweeters and limited ninja worms for new players cause the pay-off doesn't work for them. But slowdash and boots will likely work for them. Same with Gnaw, plant-burst and speed are harder than playing a passive build, which is fair and it's nice that 2 playstyles are mixed together in a character for both beginners and experienced players. Then there are other upgrades that make it easier but there aren't really other payoffs. Upgrades like pirecing, lifesteal, silence tongue, extra range on AA or slow, lonestar missiles, tarot cards, stun punch. These are too mandatory in way too many places then deciding to play without passive upgrades.

the worst was slapping things on base. It not only devalues the signifance of upgrading but also limits synergies you can take. Tweak numbers instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much damage on some attacks; here's why
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:32 am 
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Imagine complaining about Clunk and Derpl. :drool:

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