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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:10 pm 
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Thijs wrote:
Patch 3.1 beta 1
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Chucho
Chucho, being one of the new nauts, is still looking for his place in the metagame. However, players do seem to agree that he is too strong. One big reason is the One Armed Chameleon upgrade, which has a stun that makes Chucho a big threat at times. So first of all, we decided to make the stun only for the first shot of his pistols and remove the vertical knockback that cancelled enemy momentum. Some of his upgrades got buffs to test out if they will become more useful for players, as they are not picked often. The turret base health reduction has been requested multiple times and was implemented. We will see how it does before changing more about him (like turret base damage etc.).
-One armed chameleon stun changed to only work on first shot and vertical knockback on the shot is removed.
-One armed chameleon price reduced from 210 to 200.
-Neon Nitro Muffler damage over time increased from 180 to 210 per stage.
-Time Slipper cooldown reduction increased from 0.2s to 0.3s per hit.
-Bike turret base health reduced from 650 to 600.
-Bike turret no longer falls through platforms when cocooned.
-Fixed Bike turret still shooting while blinded.
-Chucho now has a chance to trigger voice lines towards Yoolip when encountering him.


Chucho's blasters have literally no power. They are some of the most insignificant weapons in the game, and have almost no unique upgrades next to One Armed Chameleon. Froggy has the tri-blaster, Coco has the homing particles, split cat, etc, whereas Chucho has just generic damage up, range up, pierce shot. You have essentially ruined Chucho. You reducing the price by TEN solar, something I can pick up in less than 2 seconds, does not compensate the fact that you have essentially ruined Chucho.

Neon Nitro Muffler was useless in the first place, you nerfing it has done nothing. It is next to impossible to actually hit someone with the fire. It needs to be a burst instead of just a flame directly behind you.

Time Slipper cooldown per shot being increased by 1 millisecond doesn't buff the attack at all. Whenever you're just shooting droids or in a team fight, no one is going to say, "Thank god it's .3 seconds instead of .2!"

Who thought Ramona needed nerfed? She's weak as is. If she needs any adjustments, it's priority. I don't know if Ramona and the turrets share the same AI, but it seems like Ramona will often be targeting droids instead of the 1 health enemy that runs straight past her.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:09 pm 
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snailgazer wrote:
Chucho's blasters have literally no power. They are some of the most insignificant weapons in the game, and have almost no unique upgrades next to One Armed Chameleon. Froggy has the tri-blaster, Coco has the homing particles, split cat, etc, whereas Chucho has just generic damage up, range up, pierce shot. You have essentially ruined Chucho. You reducing the price by TEN solar, something I can pick up in less than 2 seconds, does not compensate the fact that you have essentially ruined Chucho.
If this has "ruined Chucho", I hate to see what you think of Raelynn's blaster and Ted's machine gun. Besides, Chucho's AA is allowed to be a bit generic and weak since he has his insanely good bike AA and turret to back it up. Also Chameleon is pretty much universally regarded as "OP as balls" currently, and is still good in beta.

Neon Nitro Muffler was useless in the first place, you nerfing it has done nothing. It is next to impossible to actually hit someone with the fire. It needs to be a burst instead of just a flame directly behind you.

Time Slipper cooldown per shot being increased by 1 millisecond doesn't buff the attack at all. Whenever you're just shooting droids or in a team fight, no one is going to say, "Thank god it's .3 seconds instead of .2!"
These are both sadly quite true, however. I think that's a conceptual imbalance rather than a statistical one.

Who thought Ramona needed nerfed? Everyone. She's weak as is. lol If she needs any adjustments, it's priority. I don't know if Ramona and the turrets share the same AI, but it seems like Ramona will often be targeting droids instead of the 1 health enemy that runs straight past her.
AI can be dumb, but what's far more dumb is dropping a high-damage turret that has really good health and can be instantly repaired without any punish.

You are going full L5 Leon during 2.5-7 here. That was a really obscure way of saying you're getting fumed over them fixing something that is actually imbalanced and acting like it'll wreck the 'Naut.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:30 am 
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snailgazer wrote:
Neon Nitro Muffler was useless in the first place, you nerfing it has done nothing. It is next to impossible to actually hit someone with the fire. It needs to be a burst instead of just a flame directly behind you.

It was buffed, not nerfed. :facepalm:

snailgazer wrote:
Who thought Ramona needed nerfed?

When a summon as 'safe' as the bike turret has more base HP than Totem then I think there's a problem. Given you can detonate bike to get it back in a paltry 6 seconds I don't really see a need for it to be so bulky. You're meant to be able to kill bike to gut Chucho's mobility for a time but when it has the most HP of any summon in the game then that counterplay becomes barely relevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:00 am 
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Max upgrade 'Nauts is pretty damn fun. The most entertaining 'Nauts to look at are Skolldir with his utterly massive earthquake and Yuri with bouncing low cooldown high duration carpet bombs. It sorta makes you realise that a lot of "bad" upgrades are only bad because they cost an upgrade slot.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:17 pm 
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tolkki wrote:
Great to see that you've started posting about the reasoning behind changes, hopefully that'll continue to be a thing.


SO true. This is much better than simply listing the changes without context. This will nip a lot of (sometimes unwarranted) early criticism in the bud and reassure some players when they see nerfs or buffs to some nauts.
Smart move! TY + Keep it up.

PS: as for the actual changes listed here, the only thing I'm instantly skeptical of is the Baby Kuri Mammoth one vs Yoolip.
Idk about lower leagues, but in L2/L1, getting caught by a Yoolip is an instant death sentence already. The option of picking BKM (especially now that boots are no longer mandatory on all pretty much all nauts) mitigated this threat *slightly* (albeit not really when facing somewhat well-coordinated teams).


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:57 pm 
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Hi till now very good changes:)
i dont know if this is the right place but only thing the patch is missing is the nerf for skolldirs throw range upgrade. Its way to strong atm its like instant kill:D
And also what ideas are there for Walking rode on yoolip? I think its a preety good item but i use it most of the time only cause its the only way i can clear creeps from a save distance but after the damage buff against creeps it want be so neccesary anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:57 am 
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Okay so I think after playing more Lux the buffs really shouldn't go through, lol.

The no movement penalty thing will be big. Too big. Lux can chase for days, I'd say they're the best chaser in the game. Having no movement penalty will be bad and will allow for crazy dueling capabilities.

The health doesn't seem too big a change, but they are fairly tanky. Not sure if that's fine or not. Will just have to see when/if it's put in, I guess.

The Attack Speed upgrade also needs nerfed before it's fixed. It's excellent where it is in the main game. I'd change it to a two-tiered upgrade of 10% each. Still costs 155 each tier. This gives a tiiiiiny bit more than where it's at now, while also being priced more fairly.



Though I am talking from a stance of using Danger Pins and Heal Rattle. Is there some way to like... idk man. I don't want to say the typical "Move some to base!" but it seems like it'd be a really good way to flesh out the character and make them have some stand-out traits. Put two-fifths of what the upgrades grant now, and then make the upgrades only give the other two-fifths. This would mean cutting down Heal Rattle to a one-tiered upgrade. The end result is a nerf that also gives base Lux some cool stuff to work with.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:16 pm 
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ChrisD wrote:
Okay so I think after playing more Lux the buffs really shouldn't go through, lol.

The no movement penalty thing will be big. Too big. Lux can chase for days, I'd say they're the best chaser in the game. Having no movement penalty will be bad and will allow for crazy dueling capabilities.

The Attack Speed upgrade also needs nerfed before it's fixed. It's excellent where it is in the main game. I'd change it to a two-tiered upgrade of 10% each. Still costs 155 each tier. This gives a tiiiiiny bit more than where it's at now, while also being priced more fairly..


I disagree with this.
As they said, because of the knockback removal, the no movement penalty won't make him an overly powerful chaser, people can still easily outrun him. Also don't forget Jimmy is near useless vs stun/area control comps.

I'm also afraid of them touching Skullplate Trophy, I'd really rather just have it require less health/price increase rather than a speed nerf, because otherwise we'd be dealing with post "fix" Blabl Zork and Quark Microscope, which would cause it to get overnerfed and make it impractical to use.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:25 pm 
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Right now, Ramona is weak. Let me tell you why.

Only 3 of Ramona's 6 upgrades are useful. Those 3 being 12th Gear, Alien-Repellant Varnish, and Anti-Zork Windshield Wipers.

Neon Nitro Muffler is almost impossible to land, with the hitbox being a very small one directly behind Chucho, who is constantly moving away from anything behind him while boosting. This makes it almost impossible to actually HIT ANYTHING, as it leaves no trail like Coco's lightning, Ksenia's caltrops, or Timmy's nearly identical flame trail. I would strongly recommend a buff that either makes the flame burst larger, and a one-shot, or makes it leave a trail like Caltrops.

BOOM Gas is great for reducing cooldown, but not so great that it's worth an upgrade slot, especially when Overdrive Gear does the same thing for less solar, granted it gives less cooldown reduction. Were it just cooldown reduction, I could understand, but the principal attack: The BOOM, is useless. The explosion size is so small, and does such little damage, that you're almost never going to hit anyone. Just as well, the concept behind BOOM Gas is that you use it whenever Ramona is out of your sight, as a last hurrah for the enemy that destroys your bike, doing a bit of damage and giving you a smaller cooldown. However, the only hope of doing damage you would have is against melee characters.

Retracting Spike Bumper is a sub-par upgrade that is made useless by it's own strength's. Chucho is a pusher and a fighter. So why would you want an attack that does extremely low damage, and knocks enemies away from you before you can even get off your bike and do the real damage?

I propose that these upgrades be reworked or replaced entirely. I even have some possibilities:

Overheating Seat Covers: Grants a 2 seconds, 12% speed boost upon dismounting Ramona. High price, around maybe 200-240.

Octuplet Cylinder Plasma Engine: Increases rate-of-fire of turret by 12%, 2 tiers. 140-145 each.

Diesel Fission Fuel/Neon Nitro Muffler v.2: Causes a burst of fire that does 180 flat damage, 320 at tier 2, and leaves a trail of fire akin to Coco's lightning trail, doing 100 DPS at first tier, and 220 at 2nd tier. 185 each.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch 3.1 beta 1 is Live!
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:25 pm 
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Just because the bike has a few meh upgrades does not mean it's health isn't too high. Those upgrades you listed have nothing to do with the nerf the turret got.

Besides, BOOM Gas is hardly bad - the explosion is unreliable but the CDR is godly. 3 seconds? That's insane! Stack that with OD Gear and it's down to like 2. Retracting Spikes Fender is a situational pick. You take it vs threats like Clunk that you want to knock away, or just for when you end up getting surrounded, which can happen, especially on Ribbit's back bottom lane. The damage is slick too, and not hard to apply.

The only one I 100% agree on is Neon Nitro Muffler, although I dislike your suggestions. Flame trails are almost always really good (for example, Nibbs' Red Sneakers are amazing even with their low damage, and still after the boots nerf) and probably too good paired with Chucho's flight, the bike's DPS is nuts already and hardly needs another booster, and the speed boost defeats the purpose of the bike. The bike is for moving around on, chasing, and positioning. The speed would let you chase on foot with Stickies at the ready, and that's dumb.

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