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 Post subject: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:42 am 
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Hello all,
I usually don't post often- most changes never affect me very often, but the recent Sentry "buffs" seem to make him play more like a burst naut. I'm sorry for all the veterans that love the Sentry teleburst + silence gimmick, but I'm fairly certain developers never intended for Sentry to be another Rocket and use all of his skills for a single burst kill.

The recent proposed beta changes on Sentry are not only prohibitive to those who use him for area denial, but are also buggy and/or only help those who play teleburst Sentry.

Bugs:
Dog tags and Interrogation answering machine both seem to be bugged so neither of them work.
When the teleport beacon expires after 30 seconds, Ejection seat procs but none of the other beacon upgrades do.
Sentry's BHS does damage outside of its new "gravity radius".

Limiting gameplay options:
Expiring mines now do extremely gimped damage to turrets, and stationary mines never get better. This limits how Sentry can push turrets- he must now attack the turret directly, meaning he cannot protect the turret as efficiently with standing mines nor ward off areas using mines. While some may consider this "cancerous", I have yet to see a non-teleburst Sentry in high rank (L2-L1) games.
Counter intelligence cross' tech option now becomes non-viable in even casual matches. Since stationary mines do less damage, and Counter intelligence cross does half the damage of stationary mines, it's hard for Sentry to do ANY damage through base regen with homing mines. While I'm not saying they should do full flying damage, I'd like to see a rework that makes Counter intelligence cross more viable.
Overdrive Skulls thematically does not make sense with Sentry's kit. Sentry is meant to do area denial, and fire his mines constantly. An upgrade like this makes more sense for characters like Max, whom, by default, has 2 second delays designed into his middle and right click abilities. Upgrades like this also only support burst, which only encourages more teleburst Sentries. This upgrade also matches the upgrade history of Skree's Ceremonial mask, and Ted's Tedris. When these upgrades were made to have 2 second delays without firing, they were soon after reworked into working every two seconds rather than also requiring the user to not fire. The main reasons for the change were because they didn't fit the character kits and were too niche and specific. This upgrade is not workable; if given the same treatment, it becomes a damage/burst upgrade, and if not, it is nonviable for every Sentry main who doesn't run teleburst.
Making the beacon expire after 30 seconds not only stops Sentry from being area denial, but once again encourages Sentry teleburst. The real reason why veterans want this change to make it through is because when teleburst fails due to them getting hit, the beacon, their main form of damage, is now locked in front of a terrible position. This removes the risk and punishment for playing this way, as well as limit Sentry's presence in lane. Teleport beacon cannot be used for anything but aggressive burst in this format, and cannot help hold a position when a turret is being pushed because the timer ensures that by the time Sentry respawns or stops getting hit, the beacon is gone and nothing can be done.
Lastly, I'd like to mention Camo tent. Camo tent was a fun meme upgrade- it only aids in stomps and in certain maps, but the new changes once again encourage the use of the upgrade in conjunction with direct damage/Overdrive skulls burst. I'd like it to remain as it is, as well as Overdrive skulls.

Overall, Sentry's AA row is more focused, but none of them support passive or support play, and that play-style of Sentry has been sent to the scrap heap, along with Rocket's damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:27 am 
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A couple misconceptions here, couple of things I'll agree with though.

Missconception:
Beacon expiring is to buff teleburst Sentries

Actual reason:
Beacon in the enemy base is an even stronger and reliable backdoor strategy than Leon. I am glad to see it gone. Timer could be upped though, fortunately, Beta exists to catch on unwanted secondary effects like the respawn thing you mentioned.

Missconception:
CiC was made to be unviable

Actual reason:
This was an oversight of Firren when he suggested the changes. Alas he only realised after Ronimo put in the changes. CiC will need a buff for sure.

Missconception:
Veterans want buffs to teleburst

Actual reasoning:
This wasn't even thought about when the changes were suggested, I'm sure.
Teleburst was already nerfed a few months back when CoT was turned into a delayed burst.
It's just the rest of his kit was changed now. Sentry can still deny area but it's just that he had too much of it. Between BHS, Beacon, AA and shield he was neigh impossible to approach on high tier gameplay.


Things I'll agree with:
Camo tent change.
I didn't like it, and neither did Niki. Sentry does not need more burst and the extra fat mine only gives him that. I'd be fine with reverting that.


Passive play is literally the most boring thing you can do in this game, it kills fun for all three opponents and causes the game to turn into boring footsies hoping someone falls over.
I do believe Sentry should retain defencive play but not passive. He should still have plenty of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:39 am 
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Gameinsky wrote:
Passive play is literally the most boring thing you can do in this game, it kills fun for all three opponents and causes the game to turn into boring footsies hoping someone falls over.

Image
Anywho I'm not sure how the current changes are much better they seemed alright on paper, sure but in practice these changes severly changed how Sentry plays in alot of ways that just kill any playstyle that isn't aggressive. (I played with Derp, and we discussed the changes together).

It may not have been the intention to buff this style of play, but it was definitely intentional to nerf the "Bad" Sentry play styles, and while said changes definitely accomplished that they also removed the different playstyles he did have on his AA row in general. While also making his matchups against melee nauts even better along with a burst upgrade on the AA row for good measure. With the difference in damage between stationary and direct mines (Especially after the damage upgrade and levels take effect) there's barely a point to using them as area denial at all, and it's feels more like a compensation for missing then anything else (Since in our testing Sentry was doing about 220 max direct AA dmg while stationary was doing 94)

I just don't see why we needed to buff aggressive use of his AA if you only wanted to nerf his passive play. Because due to this his passive play is now pathetic while his aggressive play is now obnoxious to anything that he was already able to play aggressively against.
EDIT:
Gameinsky wrote:
Between BHS, Beacon, AA and shield he was neigh impossible to approach on high tier gameplay.

Also can we stop throwing the word high tier around like it means something :facepalm: . Most of the people who play the game at this point play at a decently high level, and quite a few players can regularly expect to run into players who have competitive/scrim experience if they premade with a group of league 2's at the very least.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Morrowsaw wrote:
Gameinsky wrote:
Passive play is literally the most boring thing you can do in this game, it kills fun for all three opponents and causes the game to turn into boring footsies hoping someone falls over.

Image


You mean to tell me you like sitting there for 10 minutes moving back and forth never using an ability?

I mean, you're free to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:07 pm 
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I'm not a fan of the opinion card in regards to game design since good game design isn't just 100% subjective all the time so long as you have a focused goal that your mechanics work towards.


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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Define for me "good game design" and you'll discover quickly how subjective it is after all.

On-topic: I don't think anyone wants Sentry to be able to choke up an entire section of the map, but at the same time, I don't think just making his AA weak is the right thing to do.

Can we also move Sentry's power away from Teleburst and then redistribute it to make him less of a one-trick pony.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:07 pm 
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FishmanDerp wrote:
I'm not a fan of the opinion card in regards to game design since good game design isn't just 100% subjective all the time so long as you have a focused goal that your mechanics work towards.

I'm not a fan of you saying your opinion is objectively correct how can you even have discussion if you just claim that you're correct and can't possibly be wrong..., but alright sure let's go with objectively good game design.

If it was objectively better would I be able to have an opinion against it? Who's to say that the old version of Sentry was or wasn't objectively better then the current one. Is it objectively wrong to have this opinion in that case, or is your objective opinion wrong because objective claims can be wrong, and especially in something like game design (And I don't mean like basic questions like does it run well or bugs) it's all extremely subjective actually since what some people see as flaws others see as benefits different strokes for different folks and all that.

Edit: Also I swear I always somehow manage to post at the exact same time as The Lord Protector

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:28 am 
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Gameinsky wrote:
A couple misconceptions here, couple of things I'll agree with though.

Missconception:
Beacon expiring is to buff teleburst Sentries
Actual reason:
Beacon in the enemy base is an even stronger and reliable backdoor strategy than Leon. I am glad to see it gone. Timer could be upped though, fortunately, Beta exists to catch on unwanted secondary effects like the respawn thing you mentioned.
Missconception:
Veterans want buffs to teleburst
Actual reasoning:
This wasn't even thought about when the changes were suggested, I'm sure.
Teleburst was already nerfed a few months back when CoT was turned into a delayed burst.
It's just the rest of his kit was changed now. Sentry can still deny area but it's just that he had too much of it. Between BHS, Beacon, AA and shield he was neigh impossible to approach on high tier gameplay.
Passive play is literally the most boring thing you can do in this game, it kills fun for all three opponents and causes the game to turn into boring footsies hoping someone falls over.
I do believe Sentry should retain defencive play but not passive. He should still have plenty of it.

Missconception:
Veterans don't want buffs to teleburst
Actual reasoning:
Every single Sentry I've played against runs silence teleburst. Have you ever seen someone complain about Ringtones for the deaf? It's the only 2 second silence in the game besides ksenia, and when people complain about it being too strong, Sentry mains start circlejerking and defending the upgrade. Guess what? To this day, it hasn't been touched. If you need proof, look for yourself.

Missconception:
Beacon expiring is to limit backdoor Sentries ONLY
Actual reason:
This is a sneaky one. While this does indeed put a stop to backdooring, this limits gameplay. No longer can sentries protect the turret with their beacon, nor do teleburst sentries get punished for being unable to get the burst off- in fact, they don't have to do a thing now to get their teleburst out of a bad spot.

Now, with that out of the way, two last things I wanted to mention.
Misconception:
My opinion is completely wrong because you have a different opinion/"actual" reasoning
Reasoning:
Balancing is all about opinions. Nothing's inherently right or wrong, just different. Which brings me to...
FishmanDerp wrote:
I'm not a fan of the opinion card in regards to game design since good game design isn't just 100% subjective all the time so long as you have a focused goal that your mechanics work towards.

First off, I'd like to say I don't appreciate an Admin attempting to close discussion by saying that the new choices are just 100% objectively good game design, and denouncing opinions in general if they're about focused changes. Genji used to be god-tier just because he was so focused on support, and eventually got nerfed, for example. Was that good game design? Rocket used to be completely focused on damage, and the community backlashed, so he got nerfed in the beta. Is that perfect game design?
In my opinion, balance is all subjective and up to the players discretion. Changes can be good or bad regardless of how focused they are on one goal. That's why nerfs and buffs happen. That's why Morrowsaw runs AA Nibbs instead of fire Nibbs; he believes the AA row has more potential. If you disagree, that's fine, but please state your own opinion as just that- an opinion. Not an iron-fist-like comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:35 am 
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Did you hear that, Fish? I'd retreat back into your bunker before this lot get the pitchforks out and crucify you on a scalding iron cross.

On-topic: how do we make Sentry's AA better defensively without making it too good at spamming mindlessly?

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 Post subject: Re: Sentry Changes Limiting Gameplay Style
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:49 am 
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Honestly, just removing Camo tent's current functionality I think is enough. If zoning is an issue, it's because you can become Yuri with Camo tent, not because standing mines do as much damage as flying mines.

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