Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ Awesomenauts



Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2

Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:32 pm
Posts: 205
Jasper wrote:
The linking of his abilities does specifically solve his faceburst in way that does not take away at the immediacy of them, unlike chargeups or lockouts. That is what I like about it. Unfortunately it also makes using the abilities feel unrewarding and erratic, so it should go.

As for the laser, I do agree his mobility would be better complemented by an ability that was attached to him. But that would bring his playstyle closer to all these mobility focused nauts who try to rub their damage on their enemies. It would also require a lot more time to get right than is available for this update.

I think some of the other changes such as reduced self knockback and laser DoT timings are an improvement however.

What if Rocket launch was more focused on keeping enemies in the laser instead of dealing burst. We could further reduce the self knockback, and make the enemy knockback significant.

And in order to deal with the faceburst we could strongly reduce Rocket Launch base damage. To compensate it could increase over distance like Scoop's hammer.


I feel like the immediacy of Rocket Launch is the core problem, it forces the ability to be non-impactful or unpunishable.

_________________
ipm instapantsman

would be down to playtest


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 am
Posts: 2593
Location: In my palace, mixing my martinis with paint thinner and a healthy squirt of epoxy adhesive.
Jasper wrote:
The linking of his abilities does specifically solve his faceburst in way that does not take away at the immediacy of them, unlike chargeups or lockouts. That is what I like about it. Unfortunately it also makes using the abilities feel unrewarding and erratic, so it should go.

Could you clarify this? I'm not sure what you mean.

Jasper wrote:
As for the laser, I do agree his mobility would be better complemented by an ability that was attached to him. But that would bring his playstyle closer to all these mobility focused nauts who try to rub their damage on their enemies. It would also require a lot more time to get right than is available for this update.

Homogenisation of design is not a substitute for balance.

Jasper wrote:
I think some of the other changes such as reduced self knockback and laser DoT timings are an improvement however.

I suppose.

Jasper wrote:
What if Rocket launch was more focused on keeping enemies in the laser instead of dealing burst. We could further reduce the self knockback, and make the enemy knockback significant.

Skølldir but in reverse? Coco but with Thunder Striker?

I also don't see how increasing Rocket's ability to change an enemy's position is going to help him keep enemies in a single location. If his combo revolved around knocking enemies backwards into a deployed Laser Trap, you'd need to have deployed the Trap beforehand, which would require it having a massive use range—if it didn't, how would Rocket get behind an enemy to deploy the trap and then back in front of them to knock the enemy into it if he couldn't use Rocket Launch to do that?

Messy.

Jasper wrote:
And in order to deal with the faceburst we could strongly reduce Rocket Launch base damage. To compensate it could increase over distance like Scoop's hammer.

Ammo system works, too.

_________________
Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:32 pm
Posts: 205
The ammo system does not fix his safety problem.

Other Rocket Launch mechanic that could fix the easy escape no counterplay problem while not removing his ability to deal damage (the damage he deals is on par with every other damage naut, but his guaranteed safety that comes with it isn't and thats the problem) :

- Rocket launch removed the self-knockback
- Rocket launch explosion AoE knocks Rocket back
- Rocket launch now collides with glass platforms

This change will make Rocket launch's escape not be guaranteed. Because the projectile speed is so slow its hard to get that face-dump combo unless you are literally in collision with your enemy, in that situation you are threatened by all kinds off dangers. Also its harder to choose your trajectory. This would promote skill and give effective means of punishing Rocket.

Combined with some things in the current beta. I think Rocket would be in a great state if this happened in regards to live:

- Laser Trap tick speed to 0.3 damage to 90
- 80% Damage vs droids- 80% damage vs Towers
- Cirean cigar box particle damage to 16 from 20
- Profanity Filters now adds collision to the Laser emitter, increases its size by 50%
OR
- Profanity Filter now adds two tiny points at the end of the Laser Trap beams that stun enemies for 0.3s (would actually put some interaction to the whole spinning thing, maybe a stun is too big could be replaced by other strong form of CC)

- Zurian Bomb Wrangler now leaves a trail for 3s that increases movement speed by 25%
- Head in a Jar changed to something like +100% Charged Salvo explosion size (The current Head in a Jar replacement just improves his DPS which he is kind of supposed to be weak in. For people that are getting Drive over skills vietnam flashbacks: Rockets Basic Attack AoE is 0.8, Sentry's is 3.4)
- Rocket launch removed the self-knockback
- Rocket launch explosion AoE knocks Rocket back
- Rocket launch now collides with glass platforms

_________________
ipm instapantsman

would be down to playtest


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:41 pm
Posts: 133
Jasper wrote:
The linking of his abilities does specifically solve his faceburst in way that does not take away at the immediacy of them, unlike chargeups or lockouts. That is what I like about it. Unfortunately it also makes using the abilities feel unrewarding and erratic, so it should go.

As for the laser, I do agree his mobility would be better complemented by an ability that was attached to him. But that would bring his playstyle closer to all these mobility focused nauts who try to rub their damage on their enemies. It would also require a lot more time to get right than is available for this update.

I think some of the other changes such as reduced self knockback and laser DoT timings are an improvement however.

What if Rocket launch was more focused on keeping enemies in the laser instead of dealing burst. We could further reduce the self knockback, and make the enemy knockback significant.

And in order to deal with the faceburst we could strongly reduce Rocket Launch base damage. To compensate it could increase over distance like Scoop's hammer.


Although I understand that by now there is little time to put through major reworks on rocket, I also am confused as to when priority is given to fixing characters like him.

I also am aware that attaching any sort of ability to him isn't what you are aiming for. However, I argue that discarding this idea should not encourage thinking that the problem is solved. This idea is just my vision of how these problems could be solved, but there are definitely many more ways of doing so.

The main point of this was to set guidelines as to how an idea would be deemed as a "solution" to the problem. I probably shouldn't have even given my idea, as it was distracting from that point. So far, I can see a few things changing, but not anything that will really give him life as a character.

At the moment, the big missile does everything while the laser does nothing. The big missile does the damage, the utility, the burst, the poke, the area denial. Laser is a flop. Transferring the damage of the big missile to the laser is one step, but it is about a lot more than numbers. If there was any skillful component to laser at all, that would be a big step. Making rocket launch focused on keeping enemies in laser is music to my ears, but I'm also dubious at how well you're going to be able to hit enemies successfully into a rotating stationary laser trap. Nine times out of ten you're just going to be hitting them into your turrets or your teammates' abilities and laser will be just as useless. I cannot stress enough how opposite laser is to the core elements of skillshotting and prediction in this game. That is what needs to be fixed above all else.

P.S. To stress my point about why skillshotting and prediction is at the base of the game, let me go over some examples. What makes lonestar fun? Predicting enemy movements and capitalising on poor positioning with bullpins. What makes ted fun? Predicting/bodyblocking/stunning into airstrikes and skillful aa and tedris aiming with proper stimpack and shotgun timing. What makes skree fun? Forcing enemies into one path and plugging it with saw blade so that they are forced to take ridiculous damage. You can go on and on until you get to... What makes laser fun? Uh... you get ridiculous damage off if your enemies are stupid, unaware, or slow. No satisfaction of accomplishment.

_________________
The Lord Protector wrote:
If the leaderboards were truly always designed to be strictly for the matchmaker's consideration only and not for players to climb, I'll film myself drinking several litres of condensed milk and PayPal you all £1,000


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:45 am
Posts: 514
Location: inside my house
I kinda like the explosion radius knocks rocket back, jumping on peoples heads is also way more fun that trying to snipe them from the moon.

Also I think laser needs something else on base. It's pretty close to a skree saw except it ticks slow and isn't consistent on the edge. I think if it dragged everyone in its range in, and did a short stun it could be interesting. Plus it'll kinda make sense for him, or something. After its done dragging/stunning then laser will activate.

I also formally invite you to crush my dreams

_________________
Qitara main who goes 0/13 every game.
Send fanmail to: GetBlocked@GGEZmail


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:34 pm 
Offline
Ronimo Team Member

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:05 pm
Posts: 623
Thanks for all the input!

In general I think that the unreliability is the biggest problem facing Laser Trap, as it just can't really do it's job as a zoning tool when the outcome is so random. I think the DoT adjustments were a step in the right direction, and for the next beta I'll be taking some further steps.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:35 am
Posts: 2868
Just copying this from the other thread

Sam! wrote:
Really wish you'd leave rocket's 1/2 combo of salvo+rocket alone, like it really wasn't the issue with him. The damage was fine, it's the exact same thing as getting faceballed by coco or sawbladed by skree, two projectiles that have long range purposes too. The whole problem with rocket is 1) free disengage and 2) laser trap being broken lategame with instant+slow+particles. The free disengage is the big offender and is what should be looked at the heaviest, the damage on the combo is fine.


The face burst is not the issue here, most characters have the same instant damage potential (and higher) that he does. The problem is just the free disengage that comes with it. If you want to lower his bursty harass style, just increase rocket launch cooldown by a second to make it less frequent, don't kill the unique bursty style he has.

_________________
extreme snares: dont you just get a bit wet when someone comes through the portal onto a max snare silence trap
niki: yes lmao


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocket's Character Design
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:41 pm
Posts: 133
Jasper wrote:
Thanks for all the input!

In general I think that the unreliability is the biggest problem facing Laser Trap, as it just can't really do it's job as a zoning tool when the outcome is so random. I think the DoT adjustments were a step in the right direction, and for the next beta I'll be taking some further steps.


I am glad to hear that changes are in store and am always happy to provide feedback. Although I do agree that unreliability is a problem, I would like to make perhaps a semantic claim that it is really the uncontrollability that is at heart here. There are plenty of unreliable abilities in Awesomenauts that are still very controllable, and yet they are some of the most fun to land. In fact, its unreliability makes even more satisfying when you do land it. If you think about it, a perfectly reliable ability that is perfectly uncontrollable (it automatically lands no matter where you aim it) is not fun at all.
(Also, rocket initiation is never going to be a viable strategy until laser is an active ability)

Sam! wrote:
Just copying this from the other thread

Sam! wrote:
Really wish you'd leave rocket's 1/2 combo of salvo+rocket alone, like it really wasn't the issue with him. The damage was fine, it's the exact same thing as getting faceballed by coco or sawbladed by skree, two projectiles that have long range purposes too. The whole problem with rocket is 1) free disengage and 2) laser trap being broken lategame with instant+slow+particles. The free disengage is the big offender and is what should be looked at the heaviest, the damage on the combo is fine.


The face burst is not the issue here, most characters have the same instant damage potential (and higher) that he does. The problem is just the free disengage that comes with it. If you want to lower his bursty harass style, just increase rocket launch cooldown by a second to make it less frequent, don't kill the unique bursty style he has.


Well, I have no qualms with free disengage, as long as it comes with no damage attached. The only real problem with rocket is that laser damage (or any of his damage really) isn't hurt when he disengages. If you also rearrange damage so that rocket launch isn't his primary source of damage, then you can really start to focus on its unique utility potential.

_________________
The Lord Protector wrote:
If the leaderboards were truly always designed to be strictly for the matchmaker's consideration only and not for players to climb, I'll film myself drinking several litres of condensed milk and PayPal you all £1,000


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2