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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:55 pm 
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antpile wrote:
HydrogenHuman wrote:
The problem with Aztecs vs Chinese are the rocket units. They effectively break the balance that would otherwise exist. I have thought of a potential way to fix it so AvC will be closer to being balanced.

The rocket units should have their splash damage radius reduced to only be able to hit stacked units. In other words, if 2 jags are directly on top of one another, (stacked) then a rocket unit can hit both of them. If they are slightly apart, they cannot hit both jags. However, the rocket unit's death rocket after the unit dies should have the original splash damage.

I think that would solve a lot of the imbalance problems with AvC because now poison dart units/necromancers/jags will be a better counter to it.


The problem is, if this is indeed a true balance issue (we should give it a little time to find out), they need to fix the aztec vs chinese matchup without effecting the viking vs chinese matchup.

Ofcourse, this is even saying that there aren't other imbalances we haven't even discovered yet. For example, we don't see many vikings in the top 10. Perhaps they are bit underpowered. Who knows? Only time will tell.

I fount the problem - the swordsman counters early aztec too much. Aztec's very hard to get an edge against chinese in early game. Late chinese army is supposed to rocket :D I mean rock :D Viking crushes chinese army in early game, but after a hard home defending time, the chinese push back with all units and spells unlocked. While for Aztec, the footsoldier owns both jaguar and dartman (poor dartman - always killed by his homemade poison :lol: ). Maybe giving the the dartman some help against foot soldier will make some change, I think.
Maybe improve a bit the dash attack of Jaguar (maybe nerf the basic damage a bit), so they can handle better against the ranged troops (like early rocketeer).

Arrow Rain's too too too crazy at this time, it kills everything ;) maybe some nerf is needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Moon Pine wrote:
I fount the problem - the swordsman counters early aztec too much. Aztec's very hard to get an edge against chinese in early game. Late chinese army is supposed to rocket :D I mean rock :D Viking crushes chinese army in early game, but after a hard home defending time, the chinese push back with all units and spells unlocked. While for Aztec, the footsoldier owns both jaguar and dartman (poor dartman - always killed by his homemade poison :lol: ). Maybe giving the the dartman some help against foot soldier will make some change, I think.
Maybe improve a bit the dash attack of Jaguar (maybe nerf the basic damage a bit), so they can handle better against the ranged troops (like early rocketeer).

Arrow Rain's too too too crazy at this time, it kills everything ;) maybe some nerf is needed.

You guys might want to specify whether you are talking about the current PC/Mac version with the new balances, or the PS3 version with no changes yet.

Swordsmen do counter Aztec early, but an early giant can stop them. While the Chinese user is continuously wasting 50 gold a piece, a 180 gold giant will kill them all, not to mention stopping terracotta.

Only bad Aztec players will use darts against swordsmen.

Viking are terrible against Chinese, unless the Chi user is rushing zen masters. By the time the Chinese player has rockets, it's GG for the Viking player. Also, the Viking vs Aztec matchup is easily in the Aztec player's hands, both early and late game. This is probably why you don't see a lot of Viking users at all, let alone in the "top 10".

Arrow rain has already been nerfed for the PC+Mac version, I doubt it would be nerfed further.

What it boils down to is this is an advanced game of "rock, paper, scissors", since you the only "control" you have during the game is through spells and unit production. It is kind of dumb that most Chinese spells+units have so many bonuses and almost no drawbacks, but Ronimo seems really reluctant to overdo the nerfs for that faction. I really feel bad for the Vikings, since they aren't used that much, even after they've gotten buffed a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:10 am 
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;) Sun giant won't help you - he's slow enough to let the chinese response with a zen master or rocketeer + shield. By the time the rocketeer hits the battlefield, Aztec needs some reliable fast unit to cut them down before they form a group.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:22 am 
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yea.. you know what? all these "balance issues" are nothing compared to how often vikings get rocked late game. fix THAT <-. On small maps vikings can rush and finish the job. On middle and large maps rushes won't do anything against aztecs or chinese. aztecs spam a 40$ unit that is so dispensable it's semi retarded. throw in a cat warrior it's good enough to stale mate against more expensive units. I need to actually, in terms of cost, create a squad 2x the cost of cat + dart to actually push them back.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:49 pm 
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devenir wrote:
yea.. you know what? all these "balance issues" are nothing compared to how often vikings get rocked late game. fix THAT <-. On small maps vikings can rush and finish the job. On middle and large maps rushes won't do anything against aztecs or chinese. aztecs spam a 40$ unit that is so dispensable it's semi retarded. throw in a cat warrior it's good enough to stale mate against more expensive units. I need to actually, in terms of cost, create a squad 2x the cost of cat + dart to actually push them back.


Hey, relax dude. Let's keep it civilized on this forum. It's true that the Vikings currently aren't as balanced as they should be, perhaps, but other people have pointed this out earlier in this thread and in earlier threads, ranging from their ultimate spell to their weakness to poison and stunning.

All I can tell you is hope for a patch, and play to the vikings' strengths.
use their heal spell at the moment they are poisoned, use rage to avoid this or slam into zen masters/monkeys. if the opponents monkey/dartblower rush, use axe throwers. If they use swordsmen or jaguarwarriors, focus on berserkers. spread your rages to avoid getting AoEed, try the buffed catapults. Freeze necro's, dart blowers, rocketmen and other high priority targets to minimize damage to your troops. And don't forget the incredibly strong lightning bolt, your best friend vs. aztecs and monkeys.

Hope this helps. Good luck, and keep giving up the viking love!


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:54 am 
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yea my point wasn't really that Vikings are at a disadvantage. my point is that Aztecs and Chinese players should be thankful that they seemingly have an advantage over Vikings and shouldn't post so many threads about the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:17 am 
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devenir wrote:
yea my point wasn't really that Vikings are at a disadvantage. my point is that Aztecs and Chinese players should be thankful that they seemingly have an advantage over Vikings and shouldn't post so many threads about the same thing.

You speak of "threads" as if they were popping up all over the place. We've all used this thread for gameplay+balance discussion, the main issues everyone in agreement on were:

-Swordsmen too strong
-Chinese too strong
-Vikings underpowered
-Balance patch should fix most balance issues..... hopefully

Yes the Viking vs Aztec matchup is totally unfair for the Viking player, mainly it's because of necromancers. Viking AOE is too late-game and is only available through units, whereas Aztecs/Chinese have an AOE spell to use. Spamming darts on Viking opponents is the new sword spam.

Moon Pine wrote:
;) Sun giant won't help you - he's slow enough to let the chinese response with a zen master or rocketeer + shield. By the time the rocketeer hits the battlefield, Aztec needs some reliable fast unit to cut them down before they form a group.
No offense but I don't think you've played against a good Aztec player. Yes giants are slow, but it's not like the Aztec player is going to be sitting around picking his nose while you research zen masters/rocketeers/whatever. By the time your ZM or rocket is sent out to respond to the giant, the Aztec player can trap/MC/poison bomb whatever threat, and maybe send out a few jags for cleanup. After the patch it's going to be even easier for Aztec to use jags against swords (in theory), so that leaves plenty more options for Aztec. Everyone and his brother knows pre-patch that Chinese are pretty f***ing imbalanced, but you act like there's no counter to your "perfect" strategy, which there is. Sadly, for Vikings, they have no counters to a lot of strategies, so you have to feel bad for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Man, the frost hammer is not "too late game".
Viking lives fine in BOTH early and late game against Aztec, the only problem is just the middle game. The only problem for viking is the poison cloud which can slay the slow viking group alive - use rage to pass it by! Necromancer's just 2 lightnings and 2 hammers for the skeletons.
Rune of magic can bring viking enough mana to response.

For me, I think
Sword soldier's just fine, but maybe the ricocheted poison dart's a bit too much for the dart blower. In many situations, I just use the swordmen as by-products of the arrow rain :monkey: .
There aren't many guys playing viking, but also not many guy playing chinese ;) The strength of chinese is that it has hard counter to any type of opponent force AND it has the delay magics to bring it time to build the counters.

For me, just some own options:
@ Arrow Rain needs some nerf - currently it kills necrmancers, it kills catapults, it kills frost hammers.

@ Blow dart should have a little resistance against poison, so they won't be kill be 2 reflected darts. :monkey: currently, 2 sword soldiers = a whole bunch of dart blowers :monkey:

@ Catapult needs some love:
* Swordsman shouldn't reflect it's projectile.
* An arrow rain shouldn't kill it directly.
* Should have a bit magic resist to withstand 2 lightnings and cost a bit more for mind control (currently, sun giant -> sacrifice -> catapult control :monkey: quite fun aha?)

@ Jaguar needs some love against ranged units. Maybe make them invincible during dash and maybe +2 HP (so they needs 4 rockets to kill instead of 3, data from the encyclopedia in forums :monkey: ).

@ Berserker needs some love - yep, I know he rocks on Jaguar and Swordsman. But besides, it's useless :o really useless. It deserves a bit more HP or maybe with some trade off of its damage. Currently, a hammer guy's not much weaker than it, so why I build him - he cannot output enough damage obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Moon Pine wrote:
Man, the frost hammer is not "too late game".
Viking lives fine in BOTH early and late game against Aztec, the only problem is just the middle game. The only problem for viking is the poison cloud which can slay the slow viking group alive - use rage to pass it by! Necromancer's just 2 lightnings and 2 hammers for the skeletons.
Rune of magic can bring viking enough mana to response.

Well, frost hammers are useless against Aztec: they can be trapped or MCed (best option of the 2), not to mention if enough darts are stacked they will die before even attacking (same with Berserkers). Yes you can use rage to go through poison bomb, but if he's aiming at your units you have less than 1 second to react to it- do you have quick enough reflexes? I doubt it, because most people wouldn't be able to react fast enough. Once the bomb hits, the damage is done.

Yes Necros need 2 lightning bolts to be killed.... but chances are, if the Aztec player is smart he will be producing several Necros in anticipation of this.

Moon Pine wrote:
Sword soldier's just fine, but maybe the ricocheted poison dart's a bit too much for the dart blower. In many situations, I just use the swordmen as by-products of the arrow rain :monkey: .

I hope you're talking about post-patch, because swords are too strong against Aztec pre-patch. Also, again, only BAD Aztec players will use darts against swords, not to mention the guys from Ronimo stated that sword is meant to counter darts- WHY would you want to use them against Chinese with full knowledge of this???

Moon Pine wrote:
There aren't many guys playing viking, but also not many guy playing chinese ;)

For me, just some own options:
@ Arrow Rain needs some nerf - currently it kills necrmancers, it kills catapults, it kills frost hammers.

@ Blow dart should have a little resistance against poison, so they won't be kill be 2 reflected darts. :monkey: currently, 2 sword soldiers = a whole bunch of dart blowers :monkey:

@ Catapult needs some love:

@ Jaguar needs some love against ranged units.

@ Berserker needs some love - yep, I know he rocks on Jaguar and Swordsman. But besides, it's useless :o really useless. .

OK now it's obvious that you're talking about the PC/Mac version... if you play on PSN it is overrun by Chinese users for the most part.

-Arrow rain has already been nerfed, it doesn't need further nerfing.
-See above, only an idiot Aztec player would want to use darts against swords
-If you want Catapults to cost more to MC that means increasing their HP which would mean they would be harder to kill. I don't have the PC version so I don't know how good the new version is, but I don't think they need more buffs since they already have been retooled quite a bit.
-Jaguars already have bonus leap damage, they don't need anything extra.
-Berserkers are already strong, and if you're talking about increasing their already ridiculous HP then Vikings might be a bit to much to deal with early game. The point of a berserker is a meat shield, nothing more. They do decent damage and can take a lot of hits- they don't need changing.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Just to clarify: I'm mainly speaking from my experience of the most recent patch via playing the PC version.

Frost Hammers are great against Aztec Jaguars and Skeletons (much like how Frost Hammers are great against ANY melee unit), but I agree that they definitely get owned by Dart Blowers. If you can sneak them into a big line of Berserkers or Axe Throwers, they can do some good damage to ranged units. But this only works if the Berserkers or Axe Throwers are being attacked and not the Frost Hammer. Once the Frost Hammer is targeted, its very hard to keep him alive, even with Heals. Particularly when they're being assaulted by stacked ranged units.

Many of us have pointed it out in one way or another, but I think there's a general consensus that the Vikings have a rough time dealing with stacks, particularly ranged stacks. The Aztecs and Chinese have the convenience of throwing a Poison Bomb or Arrow Rain onto a stack and that pretty much takes care of it. The Vikings have to work hard to make sure a stack never forms to begin with. Lightning comes in handy for this. When I'm Viking vs. Aztec, most of my Lightning strikes are going to Dart Blowers. And when I'm Vikings vs. Chinese, most of my Lightning strikes are going to Rocketeers. It's not fool proof, but it definitely helps.

The new Catapults can help out against stacked ranged units - the faster attack speed and longer range make a world of difference. The itty bitty stun is a nice addition too, but I think that's more of a counter against units with long attack cooldowns.

You gotta protect the Catapults with your life though, whereas the Aztec/Chinese player is rarely concerned by even one or two losses from their stacks, as they are likely being constantly (and easily) replaced. Catapults don't have that luxury - they are expensive and have a long cooldown to build. But if you are able to keep them alive, and back them up with your other units, stacks of ranged units can get wiped out pretty nicely.

In general, I just think the Vikings have to work harder to win when compared to the Aztecs or Chinese. Probably why there aren't that many dedicated Viking players out there. Whether or not more balance tweaks need to be made after this patch, I think more people should play as Vikings and try to learn how to use them effectively.


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