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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:03 pm 
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JWL1986 wrote:
In general, I just think the Vikings have to work harder to win when compared to the Aztecs or Chinese. Probably why there aren't that many dedicated Viking players out there. Whether or not more balance tweaks need to be made after this patch, I think more people should play as Vikings and try to learn how to use them effectively.

This. This is what it all boils down to! Certain factions aren't popular because they are "fun". It's because people want to win the easiest way possible.... this is true for most people at least, and it happens all the time in other online competitive games too. After the patch it seems like Aztec/Chinese might be a bit even in terms of power, again I haven't tested it yet though.

Thinking about it, I don't see much harm in increasing the catapult HP contrary to my previous statement, given that they're so expensive to build now (with a pretty long CD). Late game I guess you could keep healing them, though.

Once the patch is out on PSN I might try Vikings a bit more for a challenge (on a different acct of course, don't want to tamper with my status on the leaderboard :lol: ) and to try out the changes. Is it easier to find a game on the PC/Mac version? Any lag issues? When I was playing a lot, sometimes I'd be matched w/ someone who was probably on the other side of the world, or had a really bad connection, and the animation would skip a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:28 am 
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After over 200 online games playing only Vikings, I feel like the balance might not be as much off as people think in Viking match-ups. For awhile I was getting stomped by aztecs and chinese, but eventually I adapted to each style. I got up to rank #2 for the moment, and I feel like I have a good chance regardless of which class I'm up against. There are just a few things I think could be tweaked.

1. Can viking vs viking match up please be fixed? There is only one viable strat, and it gets old fast.
2. I have never found thors hammer worth using, ever.
3. Dragon is a lot better than boulder and costs less mana. Towers stopping boulder makes it very difficult to use against smart opponents.
4. The slow on aztec dart shooters could probably be lowered slightly. It would be nice to not have to start every game against aztec with axe throwers.
5. Not sure swordsmen at 50 gold should be able to reflect catapults. The biggest issue I have with this it that it throws in a huge luck factor into a game where there is minimal
luck/chance. One reflection or lack thereof can make or break a game.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:28 pm 
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capeel wrote:
1. Can viking vs viking match up please be fixed? There is only one viable strat, and it gets old fast.

Yep, viking vs viking's really really really boring ;) The berserker needs some truely love.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:48 pm 
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I had a few ideas for balance changes, so I figured I'd share them.

Aztec:

Increase the build cooldown of Dart Blowers from 4 seconds to 5 seconds

-This might be helpful in decreasing the stacking potential for this unit, particularly against Vikings.

Decrease the movement speed slowdown caused by poison from 60% to 50%

-This could help out the Vikings in engaging the Aztecs as a whole. Chinese can use Shields to stop the slowdown entirely, whereas Vikings cannot.

I'm thinking one of these two could be useful. Implementing both suggestions might be too much.


Chinese:

Increase the build price of Swordsmen from 50 Gold to 55 Gold

-As many people have pointed out, this unit feels very powerful considering it only costs 50g a piece. Maybe this would help?

Decrease the reflection chance of the Swordsman from 25% to 15% (or somewhere between 10% and 20%)

-25% feels like a lot. Especially when the Swords stack - then the chance increases. So why not lower the chance individually, so that stacks are powerful but not TOO powerful?

Increase the build cost of Rocketeers from 90 Gold to 100 Gold (increase the Yin Yang cost from 81 Mana to 90 Mana)

-Perhaps increasing the price of this unit would hinder the ease of just pumping them out and dominating.

Increase the attack cooldown of Rocketeers from 2 to 2.5

-2.5 used to be the attack cooldown of the Rocketeer on the Wii. Why they made him attack faster, I'm not sure. Personally, I thought it was fine the way it was.

I'm thinking one for the Sword and one for the Rocketeer would be nice. Again, implementing all of these might be too much.


Viking:

Increase the health of the Catapult from 95 to 112

-Since Catapults are more powerful now, it makes sense to drop their health a bit. But I feel like subtracting 35 points off their original 130 health is a bit much. Lets cut the difference in half and only subtract about 17 points.


Thoughts? Not sure how perfect these changes are, but thats the beauty of forums - you can throw out ideas, have more pairs of eyes on them, and collectively discuss what works and what doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:23 am 
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JWL1986 wrote:
*SNIP*

Nice proposal, I think some of your points are valid but some might be a bit too much...

-Dart blower CD nerf is only valid in AZ vs VIK matchup, and it reallymesses up the ability to protect necromancers (especially in AZ mirror matches).
-The problem w/ decreasing the MS slow is late game, what are the Aztecs supposed to do against Viking, outside of MC? If darts can't stack, and Vikings high HP units are plowing through AZ low HP units, how can you stop their push?
-I agree that you should only pick 1 of those. I don't mind either the price increase or lowering the reflect %, but both might be a bit too much. IMO the reflect % decrease is the best option.
-Price increase on rocketeers seems fair.
-HP increase on catapult seems fair.... but I haven't seen the new ones yet.

Most of the points you make are regarding certain tactics. First of all, dart blower spam is countered by axe throwers. The problem for Viking is they have no way to deal with necromancers outside of lightning bolt, since hammers are easily dealt with.

As much as I think swords need nerfing, they can be stopped by a giant/berserkers. A price increase on shield+terracotta (especially the latter, way too good to research for only 90 gold) would level the playing field a bit. Viking's heal is 120, and Aztec's trap is 110 (pretty much the only way each faction can protect their units) so it seems a bit unfair for shield to only cost 70 gold, and especially terracotta for only 90.

It's funny, I feel like Chinese have the best late-game, but it doesn't take them long to reach this since their tier 1 spells are so cheap. With Vikings their only tier 1 already costs 140 gold, and I really feel like it takes a LONG time for them to be able to reach late-game.

edit: Actually if the dart blower's poison slow % is decreased, that's no problem, as long as the poison bomb is untouched. Decreasing both might be a bit much.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:28 pm 
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(I play Aztec)I've been having a ton of problems fighting chinese who rush for the dragon. In general, I frequently see chinese rush zen master, followed by Fire Arrows and then the dragon. The dragon then destroys my worker line, and I lose. Is there even any way to recover from that? The only solution I've found as Aztec is to rush to the boulder, which is faster, but it is nulled by Buddhas. (Boulder doesn't work well vs Vikings for the same reason)


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:38 am 
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Rushing for Dragon costs an insane amount of gold and especially mana. You should be able to rush your opponent into oblivion if he tries to do this, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:08 pm 
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The only thing I have trouble with and have absolutely no idea how to stop is ZM rushing. (im Viking)

The chinese gets these out, and I respond with axe throwers. I just spam them and he keeps getting such a large number of ZMs out. I get lightning bolt, but of course 2 shots per kill is a lot to ask for. After about 3 or so ZMs, he starts getting swords and rockets, and a about a minute after the 3 ZMs comes a death push that I have no clue how to stop. I've tried towers, but that means he can just stay back if he wishes and save for dragon.

I also have no clue how to beat chinese as vikings late game. Dragon seems so damn strong.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:24 am 
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hekifson wrote:
The only thing I have trouble with and have absolutely no idea how to stop is ZM rushing. (im Viking)

The chinese gets these out, and I respond with axe throwers. I just spam them and he keeps getting such a large number of ZMs out. I get lightning bolt, but of course 2 shots per kill is a lot to ask for. After about 3 or so ZMs, he starts getting swords and rockets, and a about a minute after the 3 ZMs comes a death push that I have no clue how to stop. I've tried towers, but that means he can just stay back if he wishes and save for dragon.

I also have no clue how to beat chinese as vikings late game. Dragon seems so damn strong.

To kill a Zen Master, 1 bolt + 1 shot axe thrower are enough - don't waste the extra bolt.
For me, on small map, it's a must for the Chinese player to go ZM rush against Viking - it's very risky to go swordsman or terracotta because of the Berserker.

:monkey: monkey start vs Chinese is also fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:55 am 
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I used the axe thrower + lightning bolt strat, that is working so well against the ZM rushes.

But, I can't seem to finish them mid game. If I let the chinese get to late game, I just get hit by a dragon, and a dragon that late hurts my econ way too much and it's impossible to recover from.

How do you defeat the chinese mid / late game?


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