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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 103
:)

Rocketeers are a strange unit.

They are versatile and powerful at the same time. There is no big counter to them except aoe-spells of course. Once enough of them are out, they punish everything, but i guess that was the developers intention.

Also, if they weren't as powerful as they are, Chinese had no save way to fend of pure early Beserker rushes.(Ninja Apes aren't working, as they can be bolted quite easily, as far as my experiences go) The same seems to be true when having to fight an Aztec, who tries to pressure with mostly Jaguar Warriors and a few Dartblowers early on.

Oh, btw. In my opinion Dartblowers can be very useful against chinese - when he's massing mostly Ninja Apes or Old Men. Even when fighting Swordmen they seem to have their usesage: As a support for your Jaguar Warriors - just be sure to build mostly Jaguar Warriors. (Beside that, they are the most cheap way to create a corpse for your Necromancer to raise.)


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:32 am 
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Alraune wrote:
:)

Rocketeers are a strange unit.

They are versatile and powerful at the same time. There is no big counter to them except aoe-spells of course. Once enough of them are out, they punish everything, but i guess that was the developers intention.

Also, if they weren't as powerful as they are, Chinese had no save way to fend of pure early Beserker rushes.(Ninja Apes aren't working, as they can be bolted quite easily, as far as my experiences go) The same seems to be true when having to fight an Aztec, who tries to pressure with mostly Jaguar Warriors and a few Dartblowers early on.

Oh, btw. In my opinion Dartblowers can be very useful against chinese - when he's massing mostly Ninja Apes or Old Men. Even when fighting Swordmen they seem to have their usesage: As a support for your Jaguar Warriors - just be sure to build mostly Jaguar Warriors. (Beside that, they are the most cheap way to create a corpse for your Necromancer to raise.)

With swords being nerfed the best option is to usually wait to see what they throw at you (aka turtling). As long as you don't spend a ton of $$ on workers then you can take advantage of the heal in your own base. Rocketeers+swords with arrow/terracotta is a solid strat against almost all races, and it works against berserker spam as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I can see why some ppl would think spamming dart blowers against Chinese is a good idea but the drawbacks outweigh the advantages you get with this strat... and yes it's because of swords' reflect ability.

Jags are solid against Chinese and giant is even better (although expensive). You should try to spend your $$ wisely and not necessarily think you can just go ahead spamming 1 or 2 units constantly to win (unless you pick Chinese :ugeek: ). Oh and jags will take care of old men/monkeys pretty easily, especially w/ trap (sacrifice optional).

I haven't been playing much but I find it pretty funny that Dragon still is getting a deaf ear from the devs, especially after other people have mentioned it being broken. I've been complaining about dragon for a while as some ppl well know :oops: :lol:

Any word on those online stats? I'm interested to hear the results on PSN and PC/Mac.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:47 am 
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Hm, now, after having played all three races alot, i experienced the Chinese as the easiest race to win with. Most of the time all you have to do is to recruit endlessly Rocketeers and Swordmen - even when facing highly experienced opponents. Therefore they might appear overpowered.

Also ranged, in general, seems superior to melee. Thats probably because once ranged has formed "a stack of doom", a melee unit gets killed without being able to do anything at all - while a ranged unit facing the very same stack, at least gets a couple of hits in. I do understand that building melee is still very important, as they are decent meatshields - keeping other units away from danger.

My point is: It somewhat makes every game in which is no Chinese taking part in, kinda boring at the start, as putting pressure early on the enemy with melee only or melee/ranged, often backfires big time, when you're not very careful. This leads to mostly spaming ranged leisurely at the beginning - having a mutual "i'm not going to rush you right away"-agreement.

Back to the Chinese: I think except in Chinese vs Chinese(where they are actually very powerful at the beginning of a game) Ninja-Apes aren't much of a use, as they are extremly easy taken out by Axemen, Dartblowers and a variety of spells. On the other hand, Old Men and especially Rocketeers appear somewhat cheap for what they are able to do.(Maybe this is the reason Chinese don't have to use their Ninja-Apes at all, when facing Viking or Aztec).

My suggestions:

Increase the cost for Rocketeers by 15 and decrease their upgrade-cost by 30.
Increase the cost for Old Men by 10 and decrease their upgrade-cost by 10.


Maybe weaken them even more - while changing the Apes(maybe they are to expensive at the moment) in order to make them actually an useful unit when facing Viking or Aztecs. Nerf Axemen and Dartblowers in a way, which makes them just as risky to spam as Beserkers and Jaguar-Warriors at the start of a game.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:17 am 
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Alraune, you do make a good point about rockets and zen masters they are fairly cheap(cost wise). Chinese are the only faction that can pump out any one of their four units non stop because cost and cool down allow it, A and V on the other hand cannot pump sun giants or catapults non stop like that.

But I disagree with making rocket research 30 gold cheaper as that makes teching to dragon, well 30 gold faster lol.

I think any changes to the monkey might make it too strong to the point where it would become a standard opening in CvC. The monkey does lose to blow darts and axe throwers easy but the thing is that it is too risky to open with those units against chinese because of the swordmen. Jaguars are good against monkeys due to dash hit but beserkers lose to monkey rush.

The only thing I would like to see changed right now is dragon, every thing else seems fine to me at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Hm, basically my point is that Chinese do not have to adapt their unit-mix to the situation at all. Therefore my suggestions. The decrease in upgrade-cost is to still enable the Chinese to fend off early "all-in-attacks", which require them to have Old Men or Rocketeers.

The dragon might be not that much of a problem, as he is now, when Chinese aren't able to fend off pretty much everything in a convenient fashion - WITHOUT HAVING TO USE THEIR SPELLS - just by massing Swordmen, Rocketeers and sometimes Old Man.

Speaking of Monkeys vs Berserkers: I had a couple of games, where i went as fast i could for pure Monkeys. The enemy did the same with Beserkers and was able to prevail, as a Beserker often gets one decent hit in before the Monkey is able to stun him. Therefore, Monkeys and their low hp are normally dead before reaching the enemy castle, while Beserkers still have a suprising amount of hp when reaching the enemy fortress.

But i didn't use Terracotta Warriors in these games - i used Holy Shield. The Vikings used Thunder Bolt or Heal, which both seemed to have a by far better influence on the battle than Holy Shield. So maybe my experience about Beserkers beating Monkeys might be totally wrong.

Oh, and as far as my experience go, Monkeys, along with some Swordmen, are already the standard opening for CvsC.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:17 pm 
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After playing more than 40 games online with all 3 factions I have to agree with the general opinion. I would say that Vikings and aztecs are fairly balanced, and that Chinese are overpowered.
With vikings and aztecs you have to adept your strategy, but with Chinese you start of with swordsmen which are usefuld against pretty much any unit ranged or melee. You get terracota warriors for close situations, you get rocketeers and buddhas after that. You build 2 buddhas and hold of your opponent with swordsmen and rocketeers until you have 300 to get the dragon. If you use spells fairly wise you have the dragon ready at about 4 minutes. You kill all the opponents workers and keep on building swordsmen and rocketeers, which finishes the job. If you like you can get arrows and zen masters, but theres really no need.

Thats pretty much the ultimate strategy. Ive lost against chinese opponents with that strategy every time and Ive won with this strategy every time, in about 15 games. I have no idea how to defend it. I played against a viking who tried to put a lot of pressure on me, but he never got past my first buddha. He swarmed me with frosthammers, axe throwers and berserks, but that just made it last a bit longer. I never really got into trouble.

I think swordsmen and rocketeers are a way too powerful combination.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Location: New Jersey, USA
Warning long post 101
I have played about 100 games as Chinese and i will agree with the over all views towards them. I have a few problems with them. Ill list all the problems by tiers. Tier three to me is fine, so i am not going to go over that.

The overall problems i have with Chinese is they rely too much on map control mid-late game and they have two units that can basically counter anything under some situations. Note: i don't really have any problems with the spells.

Tier one
Unlike the Aztecs or Vikings, the Chinese does not have a tier one range unit. Because of this I can understand why the sword master can be fairly strong against melee and range units. Whats good about this is they can get a Buddhas. Though Buddhas are fairly strong for mana regen, they do not have any means of defense. This kinda forces you to try to gain as much map control as possibly early game to protect them. The problem is building one or two can sometimes be a very expensive investment because you have to make sure you can protect them.

My overall suggestion was going to be to reduce the cost to research the Buddhas, but if that was done, it would make zen master rushing a bit to easy. I have two suggestions;

Lower the overall cost to construct Buddhas to 90-85 gold from 100 gold
or
Add a defensive aura that decreases incoming damage to units inside the aura.

Either one of this would help the Chinese get the early map control they need while making sure that they have units up that can hold out a bit longer.

Tier two
This is where i have some problems with. For the most part i am fine with the Zen master, but the Ninja Monkeys and Rocketeers need to be looked at.

Rocketeers: As it stands at the moment, they are very powerful when stacked, but only "ok" when they are alone. My suggestion would be both a nerf and a buff.

my suggestion would be to make the damage they do to multiple targets get divided between the targets. Of course there needs to be a cap on how low the damage gets. To kinda of balance out this nerf, i would suggest making the Rocketeers a bit cheaper from 90 gold to purchase to 80 or lower the cooldown to train a new one after you just trained one by a sec.

Either that or just lower the health of the rocketeers a bit, so a AOE damage spells or units can kill a bunch of them stacking together. Personally i like the first suggestion better though.

Ninja Monkeys:
Going to be honest here, out of all the games i played as Chinese the Ninja Monkeys just don't feel like they are worth having at the moment. My problem with them is against vikings they are kinda useless against both the tier one units from the vikings because they can go though any of them with out taking damage. The problem with Aztecs is they are over all very easy to counter with just about all Aztec units. The only real strength i see in them is, they are very good against a Chinese v Chinese match up, if the other Chinese player opens up with sword masters.

My suggestion would be to increase the attack speed so they can hit a viking Berserker without taking damage. That would mean the only unit vikings would have to counter the monkeys would be the Axethrowers. Which seems 100% fair to me. Though against a Aztec player i am not sure if this would help, but opening up with Sword Masters is generally the way to go against Aztecs.

And that's it. Let me know what you think of this suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:01 am 
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Now, I'm not good at RTS games uusally, I'll be the first to admit, but here's my conundrum:

As Vikings vs. Aztecs on Medium, Aztecs destroyed me about 9/10 unless I had the perfect strategy. Dartblowers were way OP'd and killed things in a second.

As Aztecs vs. Vikings on Easy I struggled to win, but still win consistently, regardless of strategy. My Dartblowers were weak and could barely kill anything.

So...

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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:27 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 103
Is there any chance this game will see another balance patch someday? As i'm somewhat annoyed and disappointed to see that there still wasn't one.

After having played this game quite alot again(this time with friends), i'm more than ever assured that The Chinese are clearly overpowered, when used by a experienced player. They might have some trouble in the early game, but once the game reached a specific point they become unstoppable.

Their Dragon Ultimate is by far the most lethal spell in the game. Once most of the workers are dead(something very easy to do with that spell), there is no way to win against an experienced opponent over the long run. This spell has to be weakened in some way. Therefore: Increase its mana costs to 350. This way it stays very deadly and easy to use(hence fun and special), but you have to sacrifice a more adequate amount of mana for it.

Against both Vikings and Aztecs, the Chinese are perfectly able to stale the game with their units only(Swordmen, Rocketeers and an occasional Zen Master), without having to use their spells to the same extent as the other Cultures have to. Because this increases the deadlyness of the Dragon Ultimate even more, it has to change too. To fix this and some(as this weakness was probably intented) of their general weakness in the early game: Increase the cost of the Zen Master by 5 and the gold cost for Rocketeers by 10. Reduce their research gold costs by 20 and 40.

In addition to that, the Aztecs Boulder Ultimate might lack in power, as it's very expensive on the mana side and very situational to begin with. I propose to decrease his mana costs to 300.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:59 pm
Posts: 25
hopefuly next patch should fixe this i dont understan most of what your meaning here


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