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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:27 pm 
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I'm in the US, so this is all smoke.

Game balance with significantly different races "equally capable in every situation" is impossible - in something like Total Annihilation, maybe, where the differences are pretty minimal, but not 3 very different races. Different ones will be better in different scenarios. Edit: There is a reason why rushing people early game with a mass of units is called "zerging" them, not "marine-ing" them.


I would imagine that the Chinese are going to fare better on larger maps, where they have a solid chance of nailing at least a couple towers - it looks to me like each Buddha is worth a lot more than each Viking mana upgrade, although I could be wrong.

Isn't the Chinese invulnerability spell + arrow rain pretty much death to a LARGE clump (because the invulnerable unit stops the clump within the AoE), while poison bomb kills weak units and weakens tougher ones but isn't a guaranteed kill?


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:06 am 
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Xaleph wrote:
I'm in the US, so this is all smoke.


Heh, I guess you'll just have to play it when it comes out then. 8-)

Xaleph wrote:
Game balance with significantly different races "equally capable in every situation" is impossible - in something like Total Annihilation, maybe, where the differences are pretty minimal, but not 3 very different races. Different ones will be better in different scenarios. Edit: There is a reason why rushing people early game with a mass of units is called "zerging" them, not "marine-ing" them.


That's exactly then why it's called imbalance. Zerging, in reference to the Zerg race in StarCraft to rush very fast, has been nerfed over the years several times. All 3 StarCraft races have an infinitely better balance on any map than these 3 races.

Why should the Chinese be limited to large maps while the other 2 races can perform anywhere? That doesn't make sense, doesn't sound fair, and sounds exactly what race imbalance is. That's the very definition of it.

Xaleph wrote:
I would imagine that the Chinese are going to fare better on larger maps, where they have a solid chance of nailing at least a couple towers - it looks to me like each Buddha is worth a lot more than each Viking mana upgrade, although I could be wrong.


You'd be surprised how little having the towers up does for you, on top of that, the Vikings have massive PASSIVE mana generation, while the Chinese have to worry about keeping towers up. It's not easy to protect towers that do not protect themselves.

Xaleph wrote:
Isn't the Chinese invulnerability spell + arrow rain pretty much death to a LARGE clump (because the invulnerable unit stops the clump within the AoE), while poison bomb kills weak units and weakens tougher ones but isn't a guaranteed kill?


Heh, this is exactly what I'm saying. You won't ever find yourself saving up enough mana to use this combo effectively. At least, not in my experience so far. I just hope my friends and I are playing the Chinese terribly or something, but for now, we don't see it. They just come off extremely disadvantaged.


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:58 pm 
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Infinitely better balance? Really? That game was made by Blizzard (a large company) over a decade ago (lots of time for patches), became a national sport in South Korea, and there's still no Protoss players in the top 5... and the top 2 are both Terrans.

My assumption was that the Chinese might be better than other races if given time to develop, not merely on par. I have no idea how advanced the multiplayer scene is where you are, but my suspicion is that lack of online play is going to inhibit the metagame a bit. If, however, the Vikings passive mana acceleration vastly outdoes towers then it does sound like there's a bit of an imbalance present.

You can't save up enough mana for 2 spells that will absolutely wreck an opponent's large mob? That is rough. Monkey stun/rocket power doesn't cut it as a time-provider?


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:34 am 
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The fact that you guys are argueing over what faction is unbalanced should tell Romino they did a very good job balancing the game.

If it was completely unbalanced their would be no question or argument as to what was unfair, so these different opinions should tell you the game is balanced and if it isn't, it's to such a small degree that it is hard to tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:49 am 
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Except I've played the game and he hasn't...


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:23 am 
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It seems the fact that so many people have different opinions just proves the fact that all the factions are equal.

Remember that the lack of online play means you're constantly playing against the same player pool. Obviously, you and your friends are going to develop strategies to counter act each other, so every one ends up playing a different kind of game.


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:10 pm 
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I was more arguing that equal performance in all situations with dissimilar races is impossible, and not in fact desirable - different races should perform better in different situations, and the trick is to try to force the opponent to play your game. (Usually we hope this choice isn't in map selection, though.)

So far we have the following statements from posters:
1. The Chinese are overpowered - probably in the context of a game with massive starting resources.
2. The Chinese are underpowered - definitely in the context of a game with minimal starting resources, possibly on a small map.

If the Chinese are underpowered with minimal starting resources on any map type, then they are in fact sub par. If they are disadvantaged with minimal starting resources on a small map but advantaged with minimal starting resources on a large map, then they have a dynamic balance which may still lead to them being useful in competitive play, depending on the circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:37 pm 
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So far based on what i've read and watched, ive noticed that each race reminds of how the Starcraft setup is. Each S&S race is somewhat similar to how the Starcraft races work. I could be wrong about some comparisons, but this is just what im seeing.

Vikings=Terrans: Very basic units and spells with hidden depth. Good for almost all scenarios and perfect for beginners.

Aztecs=Zerg: Cheaper, weaker, and more expendable units to create a large army to overwhelm an enemy and more advanced spells than Vikings.

Chinese=Protoss: Powerful units but with slower production and tight management on gold and especially mana. Each unit should be protected more due to their power, and can really show their strength in one attack if given the time.

It really depends on your style of playing that determines your feelings towards a race. I will most likely be using the Aztecs.

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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:40 pm 
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To say the Chinese are underpowered is really a strange statement, as they outlast and eventually overrun my Aztecs (plus a cameo by the Vikings) on "Veggie Crusher" every single time :?


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 Post subject: Re: Awefull balance of the Faction in MP
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:53 pm 
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cycodamo wrote:
To say the Chinese are underpowered is really a strange statement, as they outlast and eventually overrun my Aztecs (plus a cameo by the Vikings) on "Veggie Crusher" every single time :?


But what are your map conditions?


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