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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:51 pm 
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ye gotta keep drafts out wouldnt want to ruin the casually fun experience of playing leon vs derpl/clunk/sentry

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:03 am 
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People need to stop thinking the word competitive means I'm going out and getting a sponsor from Logitech so I can play awesomenauts... Competitive just means there's more player control to the matches. Drafts obviously help achieve that. Who doesn't love control?

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:36 am 
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I'm all for a draft nowadays. Especially if balance patches are going to be so far and few between.


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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:24 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Snowballing = disagree, see previous reasoning as to why.

It's not that snowballing is necessarily bad, it's that it shouldn't be shoved in your face every time you play the game. Snowballing isn't something most people associate with fun. Before the XP-System, people were able to play Nauts casually without ever thinking about snowballing. Though, if they wanted to play competitively, they could have easily known where to look for the last possible advantage through solar. It's not useless to have a snowball system, it's just totally unnecessary for most people to know about, predominately the casual players, who's primary concern is accessibility and getting into the game easily. Because of that, those players didn't want to learn "yet another system" just to play a game. Nauts itself had already enough new things to be learned before the XP-System, compared to any other MOBA. Ronimo managed to make this process even more unintuitive and complicated for no reason.

Not just that it didn't help new players to get into the game (a way longer tutorial with an annoying Robot became mandatory), the old players overwhelmingly didn't like it. I have the same, albeit anecdotal experience, that a lot of big streams and veterans completely quit playing the game right after it, stating it as the reason. Even after chatting with many people on streams at the time, my feeling was that 9 out of 10 people completely hated it and thought that the whole idea was totally unnecessary and ruined the game, even before it came out. The thing is that bringing it out without addressing what the players wanted was enough for most people to hate it. Literally nobody asked for it, and I was already concerned back then how it will affect new players getting into the game. It's not like the game wasn't already in a bad state, but the XP-System somehow managed to make it even harder for new players to get into. :facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:11 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
It's not that snowballing is necessarily bad, it's that it shouldn't be shoved in your face every time you play the game. Snowballing isn't something most people associate with fun. Before the XP-System, people were able to play Nauts casually without ever thinking about snowballing. Though, if they wanted to play competitively, they could have easily known where to look for the last possible advantage through solar. It's not useless to have a snowball system, it's just totally unnecessary for most people to know about, predominately the casual players, who's primary concern is accessibility and getting into the game easily. Because of that, those players didn't want to learn "yet another system" just to play a game. Nauts itself had already enough new things to be learned before the XP-System, compared to any other MOBA. Ronimo managed to make this process even more unintuitive and complicated for no reason.

Snowballing still existed (and was very much prominent) back in the old Solar System as well—in fact, rushing damage upgrades could have netted you such an advantage that there was little the enemy could do aside from also rush them. Of course, this could have been fixed simply by nerfing the upgrades, but it was definitely used and abused.

I would know. I main Ayla.

While it is also "yet another system" that does indeed complicate the game needlessly, Awesomenauts has never and still does not (in my opinion) require any real vestige of skill to pick up—this is not Dota, although I will agree that the XP System did not solve any issues, either.

DeezNauts wrote:
Not just that it didn't help new players to get into the game (a way longer tutorial with an annoying Robot became mandatory), the old players overwhelmingly didn't like it. I have the same, albeit anecdotal experience, that a lot of big streams and veterans completely quit playing the game right after it, stating it as the reason. Even after chatting with many people on streams at the time, my feeling was that 9 out of 10 people completely hated it and thought that the whole idea was totally unnecessary and ruined the game, even before it came out. The thing is that bringing it out without addressing what the players wanted was enough for most people to hate it. Literally nobody asked for it, and I was already concerned back then how it will affect new players getting into the game. It's not like the game wasn't already in a bad state, but the XP-System somehow managed to make it even harder for new players to get into. :facepalm:

Mmm, Ronimo tried to copy Claptrap without actually looking at what made Claptrap funny.

However, I would be very surprised if the budget Claptrap was the only reason the people you spoke to quit—the XP System being wildly imbalanced at release might be more the contributing factor.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:32 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:36 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
the XP System being wildly imbalanced at release might be more the contributing factor.

I clearly remember that most people I talked with simply hated the whole concept of the XP-System even before it was released. Ronimo announced it weeks before anybody knew it will come out so broken. All those people I chatted with on streams of course were predicting that it will break the game, but I also wasn't the only one concerned that it will make the learning curve much steeper for no reason.

Most games have some kind of snowballing, I am very aware of that. Even games like chess (the board game) has it. But it would frankly be insulting for anyone to assume that players should have a special point score board to count how many pieces either player is behind the other, which can lead to snowballing. We don't need to turn every internal rule a game has into a dedicated "system" people should have to learn before they can even play.

From a game design perspective, you need to actually avoid making a whole system to learn out of something that people can just figure out through playing. It's hard enough for a beginner to learn how the pieces in chess move and what they can do, you don't need to be bogged down by having to learn an unnececary system that you can intuitively learn through playing the game (if you even need to play on that level). There are many such rules and tactics in any game, not all of them have to be made mandatory to learn for everybody. It would make the game unaccessible for new players to the point that they don't want to play, and old players won't appreciate the game "spoon-feeding" them something that is already clear to them.

There is a very important thing to know about game and UI design, which has been proven through studies:
Every time you have to do or learn just one additional thing to get to (or to use) a feature, the amount of people using that feature drops by 50%. This is as true for games as it is for UI. In UIs it goes so far as just an additional click to get to a feature will halve the amount of people using that feature. It might be even more detrimental when introducing additional rules or systems in a game just to play that game.

People now clearly have to learn about Exp, Team Levels, and %-Upgrades that scale (or don't) with levels. I think I can just summarize that the game has become much harder to get into and learn for new players in general compared to before.

Of course, sometimes you can't avoid clicks in your UI, just as you can't avoid having to learn some rules of the game, so you only do this if it is totally unavoidable because you absolutely risk losing half of your potential playerbase with every additional and different complexity you introduce to the game! Not just that you will lose a lot of old players who were used to the old rules, you literally decrease the chance of new players who would play your game by around half, with each and every such added system! Note that half is probably very conservative in this case. For a system as complex as the XP-System, they could have probably even lost 90% of potential players to it, since it grows exponetially with every new complexity added. It definitely becomes even worse when people can see that the added complexity is just unnececery. That is exactly how almost everyone views the XP-System since it's launch. :chucho:


I just edited this into the original post that should specify my point a lot more:

Now that this post got 2000 views, I should specify that I'm talking about how the game became significantly harder to get into and learn after the XP-System. I'm very much aware that there were internal tactics for snowballing before. It's just that turning it into yet another system to learn, instead of just something you could (only if you wanted to) figure out by simply playing the game, was a horrible idea. The much steeper learning curve it created with all the scaling and %-items that became way harder to compare, made the game so much less accessible to the average player. The worst part was that there was no good reason to have it compared to the simple solar system. Competitive players who needed to worry about snowballing could have easily known where to look and already intuitively knew about it. But especially new players now need to be bogged down by a whole other system to learn and a longer mandatory tutorial just to play the game, that used to be just as easily learned through playing, but also only if you ever needed to worry about it. New players just don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:14 pm 
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DeezNauts wrote:
I clearly remember that most people I talked with simply hated the whole concept of the XP-System even before it was released. Ronimo announced it weeks before anybody knew it will come out so broken. All those people I chatted with on streams of course were predicting that it will break the game, but I also wasn't the only one concerned that it will make the learning curve much steeper for no reason.

I can attest to this. We had an enormous discussion about it in the General Chat—many of us (myself included) were opposed to its introduction. Those that were not said that it would be hugely successful and bring in so many new players.

Reality was not kind to them.

DeezNauts wrote:
Most games have some kind of snowballing, I am very aware of that. Even games like chess (the board game) has it. But it would frankly be insulting for anyone to assume that players should have a special point score board to count how many pieces either player is behind the other, which can lead to snowballing. We don't need to turn every internal rule a game has into a dedicated "system" people should have to learn before they can even play.

Are there other kinds of Chess aside from the board game? You can get digital editions, yes, but is it not still Chess at its core? I have yet to see first-person Chess or MOBA Chess. That would be amazing—a FPS where the pieces capture each other based on how they move.

Multiplayer Chess.

At any rate, in Chess you do have a counter that tells you how many of your opponents pieces you have captured—that is why they are placed to the side of the board.

DeezNauts wrote:
From a game design perspective, you need to actually avoid making a whole system to learn out of something that people can just figure out through playing. It's hard enough for a beginner to learn how the pieces in chess move and what they can do, you don't need to be bogged down by having to learn an unnececary system that you can intuitively learn through playing the game (if you even need to play on that level). There are many such rules and tactics in any game, not all of them have to be made mandatory to learn for everybody. It would make the game unaccessible for new players to the point that they don't want to play, and old players won't appreciate the game "spoon-feeding" them something that is already clear to them.

While the XP System is another mechanic to learn, it is not like it takes seventeen years to master. You kill things and you get XP—every few hundred XP, you level up. Levels make you stronger, ergo killing things = makes you stronger.

Although I will agree that it has made damage calculations a pain in meinem metaphorischen Arsch (just you try and censor that, forums).

DeezNauts wrote:
There is a very important thing to know about game and UI design, which has been proven through studies:
Every time you have to do or learn just one additional thing to get to (or to use) a feature, the amount of people using that feature drops by 50%. This is as true for games as it is for UI. In UIs it goes so far as just an additional click to get to a feature will halve the amount of people using that feature. It might be even more detrimental when introducing additional rules or systems in a game just to play that game.

If the study centred around navigating menus, it does not really apply to a static box at the top of the screen. I doubt that seeing an extra pair of counters ticking upwards caused 300 people to leave simultaneously.

DeezNauts wrote:
People now clearly have to learn about Exp, Team Levels, and %-Upgrades that scale (or don't) with levels. I think I can just summarize that the game has become much harder to get into and learn for new players in general compared to before.

I agree, although again this is not Dota.

For me, it was finding out that slows do not stack that really made no sense to me.

DeezNauts wrote:
Of course, sometimes you can't avoid clicks in your UI, just as you can't avoid having to learn some rules of the game, so you only do this if it is totally unavoidable because you absolutely risk losing half of your potential playerbase with every additional and different complexity you introduce to the game! Not just that you will lose a lot of old players who were used to the old rules, you literally decrease the chance of new players who would play your game by around half, with each and every such added system! Note that half is probably very conservative in this case. For a system as complex as the XP-System, they could have probably even lost 90% of potential players to it, since it grows exponetially with every new complexity added. It definitely becomes even worse when people can see that the added complexity is just unnececery. That is exactly how almost everyone views the XP-System since it's launch. :chucho:

If the study focused on UI, its findings cannot really be applied to the decrease in playerbase based on incrememnting levels of complexitie. It would be interesting to see if there is a correclation, given that some players prefer "meatier" games they can sink their teeth into.

DeezNauts wrote:
I just edited this into the original post that should specify my point a lot more:

Now that this post got 2000 views, I should specify that I'm talking about how the game became significantly harder to get into and learn after the XP-System. I'm very much aware that there were internal tactics for snowballing before. It's just that turning it into yet another system to learn, instead of just something you could (only if you wanted to) figure out by simply playing the game, was a horrible idea. The much steeper learning curve it created with all the scaling and %-items that became way harder to compare, made the game so much less accessible to the average player. The worst part was that there was no good reason to have it compared to the simple solar system. Competitive players who needed to worry about snowballing could have easily known where to look and already intuitively knew about it. But especially new players now need to be bogged down by a whole other system to learn and a longer mandatory tutorial just to play the game, that was just as easily learned through playing, but also only if you ever needed to worry about it. New players just don't.

I would not say that percentage-based upgrades made it harder to compare—that is perhaps the one positive thing we can take from the XP System: 25% more damage on 220 burst is easier to consider than +55 damage.

Of course, we could do this just fine before the XP System, too.

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Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


Last edited by The Lord Protector on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:08 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
At any rate, in Chess you do have a counter that tells you how many of your opponents pieces you have captured—that is why they are placed to the side of the board.

That's a completely different thing. That is not something you need to learn or even do to play chess. Nobody needs to explain this to you before you can start playing, and you don't have to place the captured pieces like that. I played chess for many years in clubs and I never heard this explained anywhere, nor saw a need for it being explained... Most people just do it this way because there's literally no better place to put them to not lose them.

Is it really so hard to see how many pieces are missing on the board just by glancing at it? Experienced players don't have to count the captured pieces...

I just assume that kids today don't know anything other than smartphones and steam, so I think it makes sense to explain that chess is a kind of "ancient" board game.


The Lord Protector wrote:
If the study centred around navigating menus, it does not really apply to a static box at the top of the screen. I doubt that seeing an extra pair of counters ticking upwards caused 300 people to leave simultaneously.

It's not just about navigating menus... All software consists of the same building blocks. I can even argue that a computer game is nothing but a very specialized UI. It boils down to a very simple concept: "If you add some unnecessary complexity to do something, 50% of people will just skip doing it entirely compared to not having that unnecessary complexity in there". Obviously, if you add layers upon layers of such (unnecessary) complexity to anything, the amount of people not using that specific thing will grow exponentially. There are really enough good games on Steam that people can go play instead of Awesomenauts.


The Lord Protector wrote:
If the study focused on UI, its findings cannot really be applied to the decrease in playerbase based on incrememnting levels of complexitie. It would be interesting to see if there is a correclation, given that some players prefer "meatier" games they can sink their teeth into.

Again, it's not just about complexity itself, it's about complexity that is perceived as unnecessary by the user. That kind of complexity just to use a feature probably make people question the necessity of those features, so you lose 50% of all your users with every level of such complexity. If we all perceive the XP-System as unnecessary, that probably has led to a lot of people actually not using the game anymore because of the same XP-System. It's not like we can just stop using the XP-System, but continue playing the game. They are totally inseparable now.

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 Post subject: Re: Please No New Features!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:37 pm 
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actually though revert to 2.3 (but keep the 6 item shop) thanks.

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