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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Morrowsaw wrote:
This is black and white though since a Draft is very much an in or out sort of deal. It can vastly change how things work even if "Lightly" implemented. I don't want this sort of thing because the "Competitive aspects" of it are something that I personally find unattractive to the game. I get your point on it, however I don't think that this would improve the game,but would instead actually hurt it except for the couple people that desire it since in most cases people play the casual modes in MOBAs where this kinda stuff isn't a thing, and a small portion of the other MOBA communities touch the drafts (Those games are just so large it's not as noticeable). Awesomenauts doesn't exactly have room for stuff like this although a custom game option that is Nautsdrafter would be fine with me. I just couldn't imagine that a change like this on the main queue would go over well with the people who don't talk here on these forums, and aren't sharing their opinion.

I just don't think that it's the objectively better option, and I want this game to keep what little casual usability it has left.

While I agree, we cannot speculate on what people who do not share their opinion would want.

Well, we can, but it is not usually constructive.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:58 am 
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deeznuts can u not publicly agree with me ty ty

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:49 pm 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
deeznuts can u not publicly agree with me ty ty


What now? Are you trying to insult me or something? :think:

I only quoted you because you just summed up in one post the same points I have been making throughout this thread before you, so I didn't have to sum it up myself for the same people again and again. I'm taking that 'pat on the back' back. You seem to need all the attention you can get. No problem.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Do you agree with my points on those points, or...?

I am still entirely unconvinced that drafts should be a thing, especially as the only mode of play (not that it could be implemented any other way).

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:37 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Do you agree with my points on those points, or...?

I am still entirely unconvinced that drafts should be a thing, especially as the only mode of play (not that it could be implemented any other way).

Stop saying that like it's some hardcore level LoL draft I'm proposing. Literally the only reason I want drafts is to know what kind of char I should pick after I see information on the other team's comp, and make a reasoned decision. So I want to simply know what the other team is going to be like before I pick. It's not like this is some kind of useless information... Nauts depends so highly on team compositions that right now being a random free-for-all is what really should be in question. They let us see the map before picking, and wasn't that much better? We should be having a moral discussion about not having this information, instead of knocking solutions.

So now let us see what the comps will be like in a similar vein to finally showing the map and I'm absolutely sure most people will also like it. Nauts depends on information because in a 3v3 you can't just leave this stuff to chance... Comps are important! So we need some kind of way to show them and make games more fair and less based on luck. Slevens showed how to do it while keeping it pretty casual, and that's exactly who Ronimo should listen to. Yes, you can cater to casuals all you want, but look at this game now. Then look at games that don't simply cater to casuals, scrubs or 12 year olds, like LoL, Dota and PUBG (and I know LoL has a very young playerbase, but that doesn't mean the game caters to them).

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:02 am 
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I was not talking about any specific kind of draft; I just wanted some clarity on drafting in general.

DeezNauts wrote:
...They let us see the map before picking, and wasn't that much better?

A lot of people have been very vocal about how bad of a change that was, so much so that many still view it as a detrimental change that should be removed.

This is really the point I am trying to make: you are working off the idea that drafting is a mode that the vast majority of players want and that there are only, like, three of us that think it would be bad. As far as I am aware, there are as many people opposed to it as there are supporting it (especially in games with a similar situation on their hands).

DeezNauts wrote:
So now let us see what the comps will be like in a similar vein to finally showing the map and I'm absolutely sure most people will also like it.

Again, I do not know what it is that is making you sure of this aside from your own opinion. There are as many people on these forums that disagree with the notion as agree with it (as I said), so it cannot be us, either. Is there a game where drafts have been massively successful in a casual environment (although not necesarily for casual players)?

DeezNauts wrote:
Nauts depends on information because in a 3v3 you can't just leave this stuff to chance... Comps are important! So we need some kind of way to show them and make games more fair and less based on luck. Slevens showed how to do it while keeping it pretty casual, and that's exactly who Ronimo should listen to.

This is parly the problem: "pretty casual", as in "not as casual as it once was".

The same thing happened in Dota and there was a monumental outcry about it, because people want things to stay they way they are. Dota, of course, survived on the back of its ~400,000 player count average. Awesomenauts might not be so successful.

DeezNauts wrote:
Yes, you can cater to casuals all you want, but look at this game now. Then look at games that don't simply cater to casuals, scrubs or 12 year olds, like LoL, Dota and PUBG (and I know LoL has a very young playerbase, but that doesn't mean the game caters to them).

Dota and LoL absolutely cater to casuals. One of the running jokes in Dota is how impossible it is to form any sort of team strategy because of the constant language barrier due to Russina players using EU West/East and NA. That is, like, the single biggest in-joke there is in the whole of Dota.

Dota's competitive scene would not exist if it did not cater to casuals, because they form some ridiculous majority of the player base. Competitve Dota, while valued at literal tens of millions of Dollars, does not exist in a vacuum from the rest of the game.

Awesomenauts was successful on the back of catering to the casual playerbase simply because going competitive or professional would never work for an indie company trying to compete with Riot and Valve. I would argue that it is only since the game began implementing the "competitive" elements commonly found in other MOBAs that the popularity of Awesomenauts has begun to decrease.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:50 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Awesomenauts was successful on the back of catering to the casual playerbase simply because going competitive or professional would never work for an indie company trying to compete with Riot and Valve. I would argue that it is only since the game began implementing the "competitive" elements commonly found in other MOBAs that the popularity of Awesomenauts has begun to decrease.

If you are talking about the XP-system then I disagree. The XP-system only made this game more casual, or that was it's goal. But the way it was implemented and released is whether competitive nor casual, it's just stupid.

Are you actually saying Dota is casual again? Saying Dota caters to casuals is really the joke of the year here. How many times do I have to repeat how wrong it is to you? Saying an inherently competitive game caters to casuals just because some things in it might be casual is like saying the Empire State Building is small because some things in it are small. Dota absolutely never caters to casuals to the point of it becoming ridiculous. It's still a very competitive game at its core. As I already told you, just because a lot of casuals also play Dota doesn't make Dota casual. That's another non-sensical thing you keep repeating over and over again.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Dota's competitive scene would not exist if it did not cater to casuals, because they form some ridiculous majority of the player base. Competitve Dota, while valued at literal tens of millions of Dollars, does not exist in a vacuum from the rest of the game.

This is literally the most weird two sentences that I have read in a very long time. It's just so ignorant and contradictory, not just blatantly false. The way almost all competitive games work is that you can house a casual scene in most of them. Of course, they are still just freaking games and not brain surgery. It's like you can have a casual soccer match or you can have a game against Christiano Ronaldo and Messi. But soccer itself doesn't cater to casuals, casuals just choose to take the game casually and not as seriously as someone like Ronaldo.

The clear difference with Awesomenauts is that nobody can take the game seriously, the game can't even lend itself to that the way it is now. Before the XP-system, it was somewhat different and it had a lot of potential for being taken seriously and also casually, by all kinds of players. Alas, they lost all that with the direction they took. The best thing they could offer since then for the actual gameplay was showing the map before the game. That's a very small remedy for a huge problem they created.

With all the collateral damage done, we need to do two things:
- We need to make the game less casual => Revert back to a simple solar system
- We need to make the game more competitive able => Introduce an easy draft system.

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Last edited by DeezNauts on Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:06 am 
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Okay. A different approach is needed. One with more devils and advocates therefore:

What sort of draft would be successful within Awesomenauts? What structure would it have? Would it include bans at all, or would it be different to others we have seen?

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:08 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Okay. A different approach is needed:

What sort of draft would be successful within Awesomenauts? What structure would it have? Would it include bans at all, or would it be different to others we have seen?

Literally what Slevens proposed.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:12 am 
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Mmmkay.

What problems could you see that form having? Would it restrict players with only a limited selection of 'Nauts? Would it make some characters untenable to choose?

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