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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:15 pm 
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I rewrote my post to Mes because I was actually * to see another wall of text talking about things that I wrote multiple posts about earlier explaining them, that people seemingly don't read.

@Mes
DeezNauts wrote:
I agree with most of the sentiment about the game being better before. But they decided to take this route and they are half way there. As I say many times in this thread, it's time to finish what they started or go back completely. I already made multiple threads about going back to how it was, but I realized that brought nothing and the devs don't even respond to it. So I posted this because I'm sick of the game being in limbo, neither here nor there. It's neither casual, nor is it competitive at this point. You can't have a game like that and be successful because you don't have a vision and you aren't trying to get any niche! It's a tug of war in one of those two directions but Awesomenauts is just stuck in the middle and Ronimo has been silent on this for years!

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:26 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
The average pub match in Dota is about as casual as they come—you have never seen lone wolves until you have been on a team of them against a team of five of them.

That said, competitive Dota is (measurably) very competitive: see the TI7 prize pool for that.

I'm not talking about how people play the game... I'm talking about how the game itself is designed to be competitive and around competitive. Of course people can mess around with it as they want, but they keep playing the game that is still allowing those players to grow into competitive players whenever they like. That is a big appeal of Dota. I know a lot of Dota players and I used to play it myself. Most of those players are casual scrubs of course, but we know we're casual scrubs... They still watch the big tournaments and some of them even drive to see them live. The game gives players a framework to evolve into any kind of player, and that is what Dota players appreciate, even if most people will never play in real competitive tournaments themselves.

It doesn't mean Awesomenauts should become hardcore like Dota. But there are probably ways to make more casual drafts, as Slevens proposed, without bans, that are still casual enough for most casual players, but also allow the whole game design around competitive thing as it should be! That could be a good solution without splitting the playerbase. Competitive vs. Casual isn't just black and white as some people choose to believe here. You can massage the lines and get something that probably appeals to most people. That would literally be a million times better than not appealing to any of the two camps, as it fells like right now.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:58 pm 
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League of Legends (the most popular game and MOBA in the world) has a draft system for almost every single game mode.
Awesomenauts on the other hand has no draft system at all.

The two games are very different, also in the fact that one is extremely successful and the other one is pretty dead. Maybe the pretty dead game could pick up a thing or two from the extremely successful one...

If you can only play one naut, then it's your problem. Playing more than one naut only makes you a better player, and also improves your skills with nauts that you are not playing in that moment by giving you more knowledge and insight. If you get stuck on Raelynn and don't move on, it's your own fault if your only char gets banned and you can't play it.

Every naut has counters. Being a good player also means being able to perform when odds are stacked against you. Winning a game as Derpl vs Rae, Skree, Ted is hard to pull off, but very satisfying. If you're never willing to challenge yourself, then you'll never improve at anything; and it goes well beyond Awesomenauts.

Deez, the game is done for, and devs have kinda gone MIA. Sadly this whole thread will be buried like the other useful ones and nothing will improve. Give up and move on to better games, the world is full of them :)

Merry Christmas to everyone!


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Reto wrote:
The two games are very different, also in the fact that one is extremely successful and the other one is pretty dead. Maybe the pretty dead game could pick up a thing or two from the extremely successful one...


Correlation does not equal causation.

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The year is 20XX. Everyone can play Awesomenauts to niki levels of perfection. All gameplay has been deemed irrelevant and matches are decided by a game of Roflnauts. All new metas are based on Roflnauts DMs.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Reto wrote:
League of Legends (the most popular game and MOBA in the world) has a draft system for almost every single game mode.
Awesomenauts on the other hand has no draft system at all.

I would say that Dota is currently more popular, as evidenced by its competitive scene all but eclipsing LoL's, and with fewer concurrent players, too.

Reto wrote:
The two games are very different, also in the fact that one is extremely successful and the other one is pretty dead. Maybe the pretty dead game could pick up a thing or two from the extremely successful one...

LoL is being developed by an extremely successful company, and it itself has existed for more than eight years. Not only that, but LoL appeals to a much different (and almost immeasurably larger demographic)—it is no surprise that it is the more successful game.

Correlation also does not equal... and so on.

Reto wrote:
If you can only play one naut, then it's your problem. Playing more than one naut only makes you a better player, and also improves your skills with nauts that you are not playing in that moment by giving you more knowledge and insight. If you get stuck on Raelynn and don't move on, it's your own fault if your only char gets banned and you can't play it.

This is not such a problem for those of us with access to ever 'Naut, but the newer players (or, whatever is left of them) do not. Those that are just starting out would only really play one or two 'Nauts to reach a usable level, from my experience.

Therein lies the problem.

Reto wrote:
Every naut has counters. Being a good player also means being able to perform when odds are stacked against you. Winning a game as Derpl vs Rae, Skree, Ted is hard to pull off, but very satisfying. If you're never willing to challenge yourself, then you'll never improve at anything; and it goes well beyond Awesomenauts.

Some 'Nauts have counters that can destroy their ability to contribute meaningfully to a team.

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Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:17 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
This is not such a problem for those of us with access to ever 'Naut, but the newer players (or, whatever is left of them) do not. Those that are just starting out would only really play one or two 'Nauts to reach a usable level, from my experience.

Therein lies the problem.

This is not a problem. They could simply give new players more Nauts from the start or make it easier to get them... I noticed all you do is search for "problems" where there are none. How about you stop searching for problems, and start searching for ways around them? It will help you.

@Reto, thanks for that post, I couldn't have written that better. I want to move on, but at the same time it boggles my mind how the devs could have done what they did with this game. I try not to be angry and don't throw out baseless personal attacks at people. That's why I find it even more mind blowing why I'm getting them here when I'm just trying to educate people why this game ended up where it is today...

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:44 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
I try not to be angry and don't throw out baseless personal attacks at people. That's why I find it even more mind blowing why I'm getting them here when I'm just trying to educate people why this game ended up where it is today...


lmao

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:48 am 
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DeezNauts wrote:
This is not a problem. They could simply give new players more Nauts from the start or make it easier to get them... I noticed all you do is search for "problems" where there are none. How about you stop searching for problems, and start searching for ways around them? It will help you.

There is no such thing as a simple solution that solves the problem completely with no additional ill effects. If we started making 'Nauts easier and easier to acquire, we would devalue Awesomepoints even more for the newer players and perhaps make the whole Awesomepoints system that Ronimo spent their time implementing even more worthless than it currently is now.

The game was already suffering from a lack of progression outside the leaderboards. Given that those are currently (and have been for some time) a joke, I do not see the wisdom in outright removing perhaps the only thing remaining that actually has any real value to new players—unlocking new 'Nauts to play.

Searching for the problems in a proposed idea is necessary, by the way. No one implements anything, nor should they, without considering—in excruciating detail—all the ways said idea could fail.

DeezNauts wrote:
@Reto, thanks for that post, I couldn't have written that better. I want to move on, but at the same time it boggles my mind how the devs could have done what they did with this game. I try not to be angry and don't throw out baseless personal attacks at people. That's why I find it even more mind blowing why I'm getting them here when I'm just trying to educate people why this game ended up where it is today...


If you would like an insight into why you are receiving apparent "baseless personal attacks", it might be because you seem to consider any opinion that is not your own to be entirely incorrect and completely devoid of any need to be discussed...

...to be blunt about it.

I am giving you my opinion on Awesomenauts, as are others here (and as we have done several times through these threads), only for you to draw a line through them and give us yours instead, often with some sort of explanation as to why you are right and we are wrong.

I mean, my god, look at this:

DeezNauts wrote:
...when I'm just trying to educate people why this game ended up where it is today...

DeezNauts wrote:
...trying to educate people why...


You are not the voice of objective reality. Your opinion is no more important here than ours. Perhaps it is just a poor choice of words on your part, but you do come across as exceedingly confrontational when met with opinions that disagree with yours even slightly.

I can almost predict what this thread will turn into now.

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Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:09 pm 
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My point is, if you don't get anything from my threads, don't post. If it doesn't educate you, don't post negative opinions or nitpick every single mundane thing you find about it or every little problem.

If you think this
The Lord Protector wrote:
There is no such thing as a simple solution that solves the problem completely with no additional ill effects.

... you are not the target audience for this thread. If you want complete and perfect solutions, go and study math.

If you want to make fun of everything and make idiotic, moronic comments that don't help anything like edster ... you are not the target audience.

If you want to just be destructive and contrary to any change by nitpicking everything to death, but never actually offering your own solutions or want the status quo to remain, then DON'T COMMENT!

There is literally nothing worse than backseat gaming and armchair criticis. You guys have no creative output of your own, and all you do all day is drag other people's ideas down.

Most people actually DON'T think this game is fine. If you do here, you are just a loud minority. If all you want to do is crap on my solutions, then shup up. If you don't have your own solutions and just want to keep everything as it is, then shut up!

This is not a place to sit there and rate other's ideas from 1-10. If you have your own idea, we can compare actual ideas. But if you have nothing to spread other than negativity for my ideas or criticize them for every stupid possible reason you can find and never offer any other solutions, go somewhere else! This won't change that a lot of people agree with me. They agree with me because nobody else is offering any other actual solutions and Ronimo has abandoned this place.

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The game has been in a downward spiral since the XP-System and team levels. Even if the game was balanced, SoloQ is a torturous experience to submit yourself to anymore. Idk how blind the devs must be to not understand how these two things are related.


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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:44 pm 
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(Not wanting to go too far off-topic, but it is Christmas and these forums die during Christmas)

DeezNauts wrote:
My point is, if you don't get anything from my threads, don't post. If it doesn't educate you, don't post negative opinions or nitpick every single mundane thing you find about it or every little problem.

That is all very well and good, but you are giving us your opinions on the game—we are more than free to disagree with them and voice our disagreements as such. Of course, there are better ways to do it ("Eergh, DeezNauts, I hate your opinion and you are an awful person" is not one of them), but do not expect to come up with an idea and have everyone agree with it completely.

DeezNauts wrote:
If you think this... you are not the target audience for this thread. If you want complete and perfect solutions, go and study math.

...I do not want complete and perfect solutions—I said there is no such thing.

Implementing a draft will not solve every problem with matchmaking without repercussion (as many of us have said). In fact, I think it would be worse for the game. I am using my knowledge of what made the game sell well all those years ago to come to my conclusion, where you are basing your opinion off what makes other games with other target markets successful—yes, they are all MOBAs, but Dota appeals to a far different demographic than Awesomenauts ever did (or, should).

Trying to appeal to the people that play Dota will never make Awesomenauts successful: why play this game at all when Dota exists? The latter is almost undeniably superior in many aspects. Awesomenauts sold when it was quick, fun, and non-serious, so trying to make it require even the tiniest effort (i.e., a draft mode for picking) is simply going to drive away the people the game appeals to. This is the opinion of many of us that have left recently.

Stick to being 2D and completely accessible: that is the only thing that Awesomenauts needs to build itself around.

DeezNauts wrote:
If you want to make fun of everything and make idiotic, moronic comments that don't help anything like edster ... you are not the target audience.

I do not do that and you know I do not do that and the hobbits living under my doorstep know I do not do that and Markus, my Scandinavian neighbour, knows I do not do that.

DeezNauts wrote:
If you want to just be destructive and contrary to any change by just nitpicking everything to death, but never actually offering your own solutions or want the status quo to remain, then DON'T COMMENT!

There is not much that can be offered as a solution here, though, aside from "do not implement drafts". I could give you reasons why, as I have, but I cannot give you anything more.

DeezNauts wrote:
There is literally nothing worse than backseat gaming and armchair criticis. You guys have no creative output of your own, and all you do all day is drag other people's ideas down.

Do you hear that, everyone that has ever submitted a fan-'Naut that I have so meticulously catalogued and tried to feed back on? I was dragging your ideas down and apologise unreservedly, you disgusting people, you.

DeezNauts wrote:
Most people actually DON'T think this game is fine. If you do here, you are just a loud minority. If all you want to do is crap on my solutions, then shup up. If you don't have your own solutions and just want to keep everything as it is, then shut up!

This is so far from me I am starting to think this is some belated April Fools'.

I am about as negative towards Awesomenauts' current direction as it is physically possible to be: ask Emo.

DeezNauts wrote:
This is not a place to sit there and rate other's ideas from 1-10. If you have your own idea, we can compare actual ideas. But if you have nothing to spread other than negativity for my ideas, go somewhere else!

You want people to agree with your ideas on the virtue that they are your ideas alone?

What if I think the idea is bad? Do I say "I love it"?

(On-topic, though: I can feel the Mods oiling their well-kept locks as we speak)

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Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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