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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:06 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:24 pm 
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i agree with this post more than i can express. although i don't use the forums at all and i'm semi-active on the discord, i can't quite say a lot about this matter, because to me it's common sense why they shouldn't do this. but, the way you put it is enough for me. thank you.

and the lord protector made things way more interesting than they are :shady:

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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:08 pm 
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As someone who own both skins, I wouldn't mind at all to see them in the new kickstarter if it can help them reach the goal, however it's true that it would be fishy since they said “no timed-exclusive-so-just-get-it-some-other-way-later” and I can understand why it would * some people off and so I don't think adding them is the best thing to do.

Instead of adding both skins, what about the Voltar and Gnaw announcers? I know some people who would like to have them and I think a lot of people wouldn't mind since you can't even hear your opponent announcer anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Hey everone, I'm seeing two different issues in this post so I'll address them separately.

For the exclusive Cyber Coco and Ghost Leon skins: these are not available in the Shawarmageddon campaign, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. We've just been talking about that, with no decision made so far, and understand it's a sensitive subject. The reason we raised the question on Discord (and by extent, why we're having this conversation here on the forums) is because we're still getting requests from people who want to get these skins and we've been considering to bring them back in another Kickstarter campaign as a result (which would prevent them from being too openly available for anyone to get, as we agree their exclusivity does need to be cherished). People want these skins and we generally try to make players happy. So why NOT talk about it?

The exclusivity pledge that we made in the Starstorm campaign five years ago is pretty strongly worded, that's true, but as you can see even in this thread: opinions are mixed. It has been the same way here at the office: opinions are mixed, and while discussing it internally we agreed that it’s more important to get input from the community regarding this matter. After all, you are the ones who backed Starstorm and you are also the ones who might decide to back Shawarmageddon. Getting some vocal opposition there is actually useful. It shows us opinions are truly as mixed in the community as they have been on our team, and that helps us make a better decision.

So thank you for sharing your input (to everyone in this thread, or who has been sharing input on Discord), but you didn't have to start any rumors to get noticed. And that brings me to the claim that we have been using funds from the Starstorm campaign to fund the development of Swords & Soldiers II. That is simply false.

Swords & Soldiers II is funded separately from Awesomenauts, and the funds that we raised in the Starstorm campaign have all been used for the promised features, the general betterment of Awesomenauts, and nothing else. We've delivered above and beyond the features that we promised (though it did take us a very long time), and are still supporting the game to this day. In fact, it's been almost five years since that campaign ended and we have been working on Awesomenauts non-stop.

As always, if you have specific concerns you'd like to raise, you can also get in touch through robin@ronimo-games.com. Replies will be slow because we're going through a busy period with the announcement, campaign, Update 4.7, and more. Will get back to you eventually though!


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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:45 pm 
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It's honestly rather disheartening to know that Ronimo is consider/is quite happily willing to bunk off people who payed an incredibly large amount of money really just for two skins. This feels like a real kick in the balls for me (and presumably others) because there were people who saved specifically for these kickstarter backings so they could have these exclusive skins but now they're trying to use them for further financial gain? I wouldn't care if they were the Voltar or Gnaw announcers as they have been used for other giveaways multiple times but Cyber Coco and Ghost Leon are specifically mentioned by Ronimo when giving out prizes for tournaments or contests to be unavailable.

Honestly speaking, Ronimo has a large team of incredibly talented artists, why not create a new skin that's exclusive to this kickstarter. Have it themed around the new game, hell even have a skin contest to determine 1-3 skins if you can't think of any because I'm sure the community can think of some S&S2 related nauts skins.

edit: Robin posted as I was typing this up so:
Thanks for getting back to us Robin, good to know you're watching and to even know the office has some mixed opinions. As I stated above, would it not actually be way more financially viable to create new themed skins for this kickstarter than reuse Cyber Coco/Ghost Leon. In theory if you did you'd earn a lot more money during the aforementioned kickstarter rather than those who are doing it for 1. Scoop skin purposes or 2. Cyber Coco/Ghost Leon.

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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Doing new exclusive skins in a way wouldn't really address the request we've been getting from players though - people want Ghost Leon and Cyber Coco. One of the reasons why we decided not to do new exclusives was to keep the list of unavailable skins a little limited.


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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Like people have said, just make a new exclusive skin.

It's so easy to make a bunch of pixels on a screen feel like something important in someone's mind, I know because I used to be addicted to gaiaonline when I was a kid. It takes a bit more work since you have to animate it, but it's better than causing all this commotion.

Edit: Robin your timing is impeccable.
1. Those people are asking you to break a promise... obviously that's a bad idea.
2. The list of exclusive skins isn't that big?
3. Who cares if the list of exclusive skins gets big?


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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:24 pm 
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You know most companies eventually break this whole exclusive thing after awhile it's happened in a couple of kickstarters with a similar backlash, but I think that having an exclusive thing for the majority of the lifespan of the game is pretty good still to me.

Lemme think of a couple off the top of my head

Bandit Clan in Armello was released as a DLC 2 years after release
Musketeer in Darkest Dungeon was released for free alongside Colors of Madness 2 years after release
I know there's more, but that's a couple

Meanwhile these skins have been exclusive for 5 years now. I think we're making a bigger deal out of this then needed, and please don't toss allegations like Ronimo stealing money to make S&S 2 that's messed up man.

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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Robin wrote:
For the exclusive Cyber Coco and Ghost Leon skins: these are not available in the Shawarmageddon campaign, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.We've just been talking about that, with no decision made so far, and understand it's a sensitive subject. The reason we raised the question on Discord (and by extent, why we're having this conversation here on the forums) is because we're still getting requests from people who want to get these skins and we've been considering to bring them back in another Kickstarter campaign as a result (which would prevent them from being too openly available for anyone to get, as we agree their exclusivity does need to be cherished). People want these skins and we generally try to make players happy. So why NOT talk about it?

By advertising those skins as, to paraphrase, "exclusive to this Kickstarter", you effectively incentivised their purchase. You stated quite plainly that supporting the Starstorm fundraising campaign would be the only way to obtain them. That's fine. That's a good business strategy.

They were represented as a collector's item, in other words, and the only material reason you would've done that is to increase their appeal. It is this appeal that encourages people to donate to obtain them in the first place, otherwise you might as well have advertised them simply as "rewards" instead of "exclusives". This is where the choice of wording becomes crucial.

If you then advertised these skins in the new Kickstarter, you would be knowingly using the term "exclusive" simply to add value to a product that doesn't exist otherwise, because by the very definition of the word, the skins would no longer be exclusive in any way.

You would be calling them exclusive and using that tag to generate sales, knowing full well that it's a misrepresentation. They're not exclusive at all as stipulated during their original availability.

That's morally, ethically, and legally wrong on so many levels. When you ascribe a value to a particular thing with a tag like "exclusive", "original", "unique", or "collector's", you are required to uphold that. Using it simply to make the product more desirable to purchase without actually being so is misleading.

Now, this is a very specific and overblown example, but the principle matters, especially for an indie developer. You're supposed to be trustworthy.

Robin wrote:
The exclusivity pledge that we made in the Starstorm campaign five years ago is pretty strongly worded, that's true, but as you can see even in this thread: opinions are mixed. It has been the same way here at the office: opinions are mixed, and while discussing it internally we agreed that it’s more important to get input from the community regarding this matter. After all, you are the ones who backed Starstorm and you are also the ones who might decide to back Shawarmageddon. Getting some vocal opposition there is actually useful. It shows us opinions are truly as mixed in the community as they have been on our team, and that helps us make a better decision.

Put it this way: it'd be much better for Ronimo to just design a new set of exclusive skins and keep them that way.

EDIT:

Robin wrote:
Doing new exclusive skins in a way wouldn't really address the request we've been getting from players though - people want Ghost Leon and Cyber Coco. One of the reasons why we decided not to do new exclusives was to keep the list of unavailable skins a little limited.

That's a shame. They're exclusive for a reason, which is why people want them.

You can't just give out the exclusive thing to please the people that don't have it.

That's how exclusives work.

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 Post subject: Re: ronimo's sketchy decisions - what do you think?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:48 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Really we're bashing them for the definition of exclusive?.

Again it's been done before. Things change with time if you want to hold them morally accountable for saying that something was going to be exclusive 5 years ago be my guest, but know that I personally find it petty when it's generally considered pretty good practice to release such things to the public, and even then they'd remain exclusive to a similar degree as they are now if they were placed at the same tier in terms of rewards cost.

It's a second chance to grab something, and make it slightly less exclusive. I'd say this would be more justified with those other cases then this on in particular. Since Armello released the BACKER EXCLUSIVE bandit clan as a DLC content pack for $10

While the BACKER EXCLUSIVE Musketeer was handed out for completely free because it made no sense to charge for.

Also all of these games did similar advertising as incentives to get higher tiers
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