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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Well this thread is much too long for me to read. :scoop:

On topic there are two things I want to address with this thread:
1.
Luckytime wrote:
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WHAT'S UP GUYS?!?! RONIMO HERE WITH A BRAND NEW SYSTEM THAT WE'RE SURE YOU'RE ALL GOING TO LOVE! BY THE WAY, WE REBALANCED EVERY CHARACTER TO MAKE SURE IT BECOMES AS HARD AS POSSIBLE TO REVERT FROM THIS SYSTEM IN CASE IT TURNS OUT TO BE A MASSIVE FAILURE!!! BUT DON'T WORRY! WE HAVE A GOOD FEELING ABOUT THIS ONE!!!!

I will agree that the leveling system was a stupid, stupid, stupid move at the time. It was incredibly poorly balanced on released and consistently provided more problems than it was worth. While the concept was "now you don't have one guy carrying the whole team", the reality is "now if you have one guy feeding you lose the whole game." The experience system has been a hotbed of controversy and there have been countless requests to redesign it (from myself included) as well as to outright remove it. I've sort of accepted it as a mechanic that we just have to deal with. I don't think it ruins the game but I also don't think it really adds anything. We traded one problematic mechanic for another: it's just that simple.

2.
Sam! wrote:
You outline so many dumb points about why you're fed up with the game, yet most of them are out of Ronimo's control, and others make no sense at all:
  • Ronimo is not at fault for matchmaking for the most part, this is down to the lower player count than other games
  • Ronimo is not at fault "community toxicity" even though the nauts community isn't even close to toxic in my eyes
  • Ronimo cannot, and should not, control player competitiveness outside of backend balance. In any game, if people want to win, yes they're going to utilise the best tools they have available to them. It's scrub mentality to complain about this, and again, has nothing to do with Ronimo.
  • Ronimo can't control players being bad. Raising the point that certain players are just not good at the game blows my mind.

I agree with basically all of this, though there are some things to say about Ronimo and matchmaking. The matchmaker currently (be it because of lower player count or Ronimo's incompitence at making a functioning matchmaker: I will not make comments on things I do not know the facts for) has a LOT of problems and frequently contributes to unbalanced matches. Truth be told the constant feeling of "I'm the only person on either team who knows what the zork they're doing" is one of the main reasons I've stopped playing 'nauts as much. Regardless of the reason, you have to awknowledge that the matchmaker being a broken sack of garbage is a problem. It is the main avenue through which the game is played, and if it places players in matches massively out of their skill level on average (as frequent complaints on the Discord have shown me: countless screenshots of people in matches where the skill devide between the lowest and highest ranked players is Leagues apart) then the gameplay experience as a whole will have its problems.
I think the problem with the matchmaker stems more towards the problems with the overall ranking system. Comments about the need for an unranked mode aside Ronimo's refusal to reset the ranks for months on end ("It's been 3 months half a zorking year since the last ladder reset" - one of the more popular threads on the forums I've seen in recent times) and very little discussions on improving the ELO ladder as a whole gives me serious concerns about the ranked ladder. I know that creating a ranking system for a multiplayer video game is hard but Awesomenauts honestly has one of the worst ranked ladders I have ever seen. And mind you: I have played countless games that have a predominating outcry for a rework of the ranked ladder from the community. (DOTA 2 [quit the game because of ranked], Overwatch [hate ranked], Hearthstone [feel largely forced to play ranked], Dead by Daylight [largely view the ranked matchmaker as a joke]) I can safely say that, if Awesomenauts had an unranked queue, I would likely be playing that predominately. I have never had a desire to rank up in this game, and largely viewed the ranked ladder as a means to an end. That being said the current ladder doesn't seem to be "meaning" anything. With the lack of resets we are right back to Season 0 where everyone is in a preset rank (players who just joined stuck around Rank 7, players who play the game at around Rank 3, players who tryhard in Rank 2 or 1) where they see little if any shift in their position on the leaderboards. Without rank resets we get what DOTA 2 has: a system where the "highest" rank goes higher and higher every month to the point that the previous "highest" rank is now considered to be low tier.
But I went on a tangent about the ranking system. :jimmy: The point I wanted to make is that: yes, Ronimo is not responsible for its playerbase. Try as much as you can it is impossible to her humans like cattle. Companies that try are ultimately made laughing stocks by the general public. (Joke about League of Legends' toxicity bans goes here.)

Overall I also haven't been playing Awesomenauts that much as of late, but I also haven't been playing Team Fortress 2 as much either. There are people who say TF2 is dying, in large part because the developers are putting less emphasis onto the game, but I think the problem with Team Fortress 2 is the same problem Awesomenauts has.
We need a break. You, me, and the developers have all been on this road trip for a long time now, and we all want to take a pit stop. We want to go get a bite to eat, take a leak, and sleep lying down instead of in a sitting position. This doesn't mean that the game is dead, just that it's on hold. You're burnt out and need to take a few months away from the game. I can tell you that when I took a monthlong break or so from the game I found it way more enjoyable to come back to. Playing the game recently I still had a blast playing the same game I had played hundreds of times before.

~

But before any more crticism is leveled at Ronimo I will leave with this statement:
A lot of games will have an overarching thought process that a lot of the community will share. I was first introduced to this concept when watching a review for Payday 2 DLC, in which the reviewer said that "the overarching thought process with Payday 2 DLC as of late is 'We didn't ask for this' - We didn't ask for skins, DLC based on some random Swedish DJ, or a Goat Simulator crossover, but at the same time we never asked for Ron Perlman, a Hardcore Henry crossover, or the ability to play as a guy with a chicken mask who speaks with a tape recorder."
For me the overarching thought process for Awesomenauts has always been "Who thought THAT was a good idea?!" This goes two ways: the experience system and ranked lader makes me question what were they thinking, but characters like Chucho and Scoop make me happy that they had such insane ideas. Ronimo has always been hit-or-miss with me. There are times I want to aplaud them and times I want to personally go to the netherlands to slap them all in the face. But overall I think their hits have far outweighed their misses. Cause if that wasn't the case 'nauts wouldn't be one of my most played games on Steam, and I wouldn't keep coming back to this game again and again.

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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:54 pm 
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GuyBrush wrote:
But before any more crticism is leveled at Ronimo I will leave with this statement:
A lot of games will have an overarching thought process that a lot of the community will share. I was first introduced to this concept when watching a review for Payday 2 DLC, in which the reviewer said that "the overarching thought process with Payday 2 DLC as of late is 'We didn't ask for this' - We didn't ask for skins, DLC based on some random Swedish DJ, or a Goat Simulator crossover, but at the same time we never asked for Ron Perlman, a Hardcore Henry crossover, or the ability to play as a guy with a chicken mask who speaks with a tape recorder."
For me the overarching thought process for Awesomenauts has always been "Who thought THAT was a good idea?!" This goes two ways: the experience system and ranked lader makes me question what were they thinking, but characters like Chucho and Scoop make me happy that they had such insane ideas. Ronimo has always been hit-or-miss with me. There are times I want to aplaud them and times I want to personally go to the netherlands to slap them all in the face. But overall I think their hits have far outweighed their misses. Cause if that wasn't the case 'nauts wouldn't be one of my most played games on Steam, and I wouldn't keep coming back to this game again and again.


Holy Zork, how did you, Guybrush, write something so sincere?
I fully agree with this. They're but human, everyone just wants the best for the game, we make mistakes, we experiment. THings don't always turn out good but for what it was worth, I had a good time. 4650 hours in a stinking 2D moba ain't nothing to scoff at.

Ronimo are acting desperate and what I see now is people getting mad at a company honestly just trying to survive at this point.

Welcome to the real world, it's not a nice place, it's corrupt and full of people abusing exploits to get through it. Everyone has or will do it.
Is it nice or honorable? No, but look up the career story of any politician or major CEO how they got where they are and I can guarantee you will resent all of them.

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The year is 20XX. Everyone can play Awesomenauts to niki levels of perfection. All gameplay has been deemed irrelevant and matches are decided by a game of Roflnauts. All new metas are based on Roflnauts DMs.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
Holy Zork, how did you, Guybrush, write something so sincere?

Talk about a backhanded compliment.

I love it.

On-topic: Some of the issues the community has with Ronimo aren't that they're doing what they can to keep the money flowing, but that some of the mistakes they've made were so glaringly obvious at the time (see: F2P's botched release) that you really have to question their... well, acumen.

Even the community could see that F2P wouldn't work before its launch, as we screeched about it in the General Chat, and I refuse to believe Ronimo didn't have serious doubts, either.

There's an issue with ignoring the obvious and hoping for the best—namely that it doesn't work in practice, as you can see.

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Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

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Give this guy a duck lololol

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Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
You outline so many dumb points about why you're fed up with the game, yet most of them are out of Ronimo's control, and others make no sense at all:
  • Ronimo is not at fault for matchmaking for the most part, this is down to the lower player count than other games
  • Ronimo is not at fault "community toxicity" even though the nauts community isn't even close to toxic in my eyes
  • Ronimo cannot, and should not, control player competitiveness outside of backend balance. In any game, if people want to win, yes they're going to utilise the best tools they have available to them. It's scrub mentality to complain about this, and again, has nothing to do with Ronimo.
  • Ronimo can't control players being bad. Raising the point that certain players are just not good at the game blows my mind.

Why are people agreeing with this nonsense? Ronimo's decisions led to the low player count, which led to matchmaking and toxicity issues. One stems directly from the other. Ronimo can't control players being bad, but again, that's the same problem as matchmaking so I don't know why it was brought up twice. They can also discourage toxicity by removing or renaming taunts and acting on player reports.

And lastly, Ronimo can't tell players not to exploit strategies, but they can patch out those strategies... like how they patched out Timerift's droid-clearing capability. They have direct control over that as far as I can tell.

How in the hell is Ronimo not in control of the experience they crafted with their own hands? Give me a break.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:52 pm 
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My concise guide to balancing
Cynderp wrote:
The year is 20XX. Everyone can play Awesomenauts to niki levels of perfection. All gameplay has been deemed irrelevant and matches are decided by a game of Roflnauts. All new metas are based on Roflnauts DMs.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:22 am 
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Luckytime wrote:
And lastly, Ronimo can't tell players not to exploit strategies, but they can patch out those strategies... like how they patched out Timerift's droid-clearing capability. They have direct control over that as far as I can tell.



Patching out one strategy just gives rise to another. The best players will always play better, develop better strategies and adjust faster to the meta. A good game has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. That's how you get depth in mechanics. You balance for the pros because those are the people who are actually navigating the depth. Sure there should be a minimum balancing for noobs so that they can learn the game and still have fun, but you can't ever expect a good game to be balanced in such a way that a noob can fight on even ground with a pro. There wouldn't be anything worthwhile to discover mechanically in such a game.

On the other stuff, Ronimo made mistakes so we have the number of players we have. Matchmaking is * because of that and there is nothing we can do other than deal with it.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:47 am 
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i'm not good at putting big thought posts together but ill try. sure some parts of the game arent as good as they were before, I myself much more liked the 'drop in, drop out' style before, as well as the pre-xp system, but things got to change. but I am going to continue to play and support awesomenauts until theres literally no one else playing, and will still be supporting coco after.

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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:44 am 
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Rexic The King wrote:
but I am going to continue to play and support awesomenauts until theres literally no one else playing, and will still be supporting coco after.

I'll probably keep playing too, but only because of nostalgia. I used to support nauts because it used to be a different game. They patched it into something else though, mainly through the characters.

It a similar process to evolution, adding 1 new character makes the game slightly different but still more-or-less the same. 10 characters later and the game becomes vastly different. And no, maps don't change the game in the same way because you don't play maps, you play ON maps.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Luckytime wrote:
...And no, maps don't change the game in the same way because you don't play maps, you play ON maps.

What do you mean?

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Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: From Glory to Gunk
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:17 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Luckytime wrote:
...And no, maps don't change the game in the same way because you don't play maps, you play ON maps.

What do you mean?

Maps are at least an order of magnitude easier to balance than a character. The only big criteria you need to fulfill is avoid cheese strats and make sure every character can get around easily and make sure the disparity between the most mobile and least mobile characters isn't that big.

A character is more difficult because of the depth of matchups, cooldowns, and other mechanics that aren't stagnant throughout a normal game.


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