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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:59 am 
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Gameinsky wrote:

last post of the first page.


That post shows up as this to me :

arghyad1 wrote:
Xelrog wrote:
The Lord Protector wrote:
something like a new leaderboard system won't provide any meaningful benefit without a large playerbase.

I disagree. It would make playing the game feel much better and cause me and many players to play more, something which the response to threads like this signifies pretty clearly.

Gameinsky wrote:
I still think we don't need a fancy elo system and just having a flat increase/decrease in ranking for 95% of the games is good enough.


A working leaderboard would ensure that a lot of players who like the game but don't play it regularly at end season will keep playing the game throughout without any significant breaks to maintain rankings.

For this season, the top 3 have been there since ~ 1st or 2nd week of June, & all of them have under 100 games. Imho they would play a lot more games if the leaderboard points gain did not reduce to ~ 1/5 th after one plays ~ 100-150 games in a season. This present point system also encourages smurfing which is never healthy for any competitive multiplayer game.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:44 am 
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Yes, and Gameinsky’s comment is right there, beginning “I still think...”.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:51 am 
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I think the problem is that Ronimo doesn't see leaderboards as a progression system. In every discussion i've had with Ronimo on this, like rating decay, they can easily invalidate your argument by saying the leaderboards were never meant to be for progression. It's there for determining skill alone for the MM and nothing else. Therefore your rank stagnates.

Next step is to see if it does it's job, because I don't believe it does a good job of determining skill. There's many indications for this.

Win-ratio is all over the place. Most top 250 are between 50% to 90% win ratio. A huge gap yet they are the same 'skill'. Early season grinds taking up spots -> problem without decay. So apparently you are more skilled if you play early season. Then theres premade and soloq, which should honestly be a seperated leaderboard. Last but not least the system does not base rating gain of the naut you play. I would be fine with a formula that gives less rating on nauts with high win% and more on nauts with less win%. After all, most L1 Players are completely lost without S/A tier (push)naut comfort zone.

Another problem is alt accounts being everywhere. In theory the leaderboards should be placing the alt next to the main account, they are played by the same person after all. But this rarely ever happend what leaves another flaw in the 'leaderboards is for skill determining' statement. And if I were the sweatiest tryhard ever, I could still climb to top 20 this late in the season.

The leaderboards are far way to determine skill and I think it's less about getting stuck, but your rank invalidated immediatly wherever you get because there's players next to you on the board, sometimes with 60% win-ratio.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:59 am 
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Japiepatatzakie wrote:
I think the problem is that Ronimo doesn't see leaderboards as a progression system. In every discussion i've had with Ronimo on this, like rating decay, they can easily invalidate your argument by saying the leaderboards were never meant to be for progression. It's there for determining skill alone for the MM and nothing else.

That's why they need different, separate values unrelated to matchmaking so that they can provide that sense of progression. Nothing else in the game is.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:51 am 
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Xelrog wrote:
Japiepatatzakie wrote:
I think the problem is that Ronimo doesn't see leaderboards as a progression system. In every discussion i've had with Ronimo on this, like rating decay, they can easily invalidate your argument by saying the leaderboards were never meant to be for progression. It's there for determining skill alone for the MM and nothing else.

That's why they need different, separate values unrelated to matchmaking so that they can provide that sense of progression. Nothing else in the game is.


Correct. However there are things like awesomepoints, stats and medals. These reward you for playing, but not so much based off performance. I think we need the latter for long term players that otherwise have nothing to gain.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:32 am 
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Hmm...Ok so what if instead of trying to flood the game with people all at once, we start off with a system that prevents any more leakage.(people leaving) Maybe if we rated players based off a more proactive element, maybe just straight up wins are what's breaking the leaderboards? sure all the top 20 or whatever deserve their spot (in skill mind you) but that doesn't make it fun for people in L3 and L2 who solo Que. Sure winning losing can play a big part but maybe the game can analyze a players individual performance and grant ranking based on those categories, it's not a long term solution, but i think it will retain the already small playerbase that we have. Because once the game gets cookin' again I'm sure the general, "win or lose" gig will be sufficient.

Because I swear all I see in general Chat is stuff like..."Goes 11/3 and loses, thanks Ronimo" xD
or "Can't carry this gnaw" :lolstar:

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Win-ratio is all over the place. Most top 250 are between 50% to 90% win ratio. A huge gap yet they are the same 'skill'.

I don't see how relevant this is. The reason why the 50% got there, is because he won more matches against stronger than him. I guess the Top 250 with 90% winrate are either people who are very good (and like in the top 5), or people who managed to find a time where not many good players are around so they can get a high win-rate, or perhaps they just premade all the way and never actually meet stronger than them as a team ; even though each of them can be weaker individually.

There is just no direct relation between win-rate and MMR.

Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Early season grinds taking up spots -> problem without decay. So apparently you are more skilled if you play early season.

The rating system only makes sense when you actually play the game. The rating is there to match people with or against you. If you don't play the game, you will not change the matchmaking of the players who play the game. If you do play the game ; welcome back ! If your rating turns out to be wrong, you will lose over and over until you get back to a rank more accurate.

The only issue I see is that if someone plays early season, gets lucky in his match-ups and go say to L2, then comes back 4 months after ; if he actually should be in L6, then he will lose a lot of matches and it will be very painful.

Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Then theres premade and soloq, which should honestly be a seperated leaderboard.

So you would have one rating per premade?

Question : in how many different teams did you play since the beginning of the season? How many times for each team? As soon as you start to queue with player C who isn't player B, you form a different premade, and would get a completely new rating? That's completely unfeasible, the "premade" leaderboard would be a big mess. And how would you compare premade's rating with soloQ's rating ? Say if you have 3 full premades and 97 soloQs queuing. How do you determine who goes where ? If the rating of the premade is a seperate value from the soloQ rating, there is absolutely no possible comparison.

The rating of the premade should be a function of the ratings of those forming the premade ; not a separate value. Which is what the system does currently if i'm not mistaken.

Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Last but not least the system does not base rating gain of the naut you play. I would be fine with a formula that gives less rating on nauts with high win% and more on nauts with less win%. After all, most L1 Players are completely lost without S/A tier (push)naut comfort zone.

If you remember the previous win% stats that were published, the naut with the most win% was Sentry with 57% (it was in late 2016). The least was Yoolip with 44%. Most others were between 47% and 53%.
Link to the stats

Perhaps there is a short term issue when a naut is just released and he is broken either because of balance, or because people don't know how to counter him yet ; but a month after and it's fixed most of the time.

In my experience you lose mostly because of the enemy comp, rather than the actual potential of each individual naut.

Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Another problem is alt accounts being everywhere. In theory the leaderboards should be placing the alt next to the main account, they are played by the same person after all. But this rarely ever happend what leaves another flaw in the 'leaderboards is for skill determining' statement. And if I were the sweatiest tryhard ever, I could still climb to top 20 this late in the season.

OK. How do you detect whether the alt and the main accounts are played by the same person?

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:07 pm 
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Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Xelrog wrote:
Japiepatatzakie wrote:
I think the problem is that Ronimo doesn't see leaderboards as a progression system. In every discussion i've had with Ronimo on this, like rating decay, they can easily invalidate your argument by saying the leaderboards were never meant to be for progression. It's there for determining skill alone for the MM and nothing else.

That's why they need different, separate values unrelated to matchmaking so that they can provide that sense of progression. Nothing else in the game is.


Correct. However there are things like awesomepoints, stats and medals.

Awesomepoints have no value because there's nothing to spend them on, and therefore provide zero motivation to play and collect. Awesomepoints as they are now are not a reason to play.

I don't know why you would ever continue playing just to look at your stats. There's no goal, no unlockable, no benchmark. What's more, no one else can see them. So who cares? Also zero incentive.

Medals exist, and the addition of the 250-win medals was something, at the very least... but they only count wins, so every time I lose a game as X character I was trying to make medal progress on, it feels like 30 minutes of my life wasted. It's not a good feeling, nor is the feeling of having 1 more tick on the wall of 250 particularly satisfying or worth it. It doesn't make me want to play more, doesn't feel like I've accomplished anything.

A leaderboards system that moves every match makes it feel like there's always the potential for improvement, because no matter what, you're never stuck. I find that--just knowing that I'm moving, that the matches I'm playing matter--to be very rewarding.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Xelrog wrote:
A leaderboards system that moves every match makes it feel like there's always the potential for improvement, because no matter what, you're never stuck. I find that--just knowing that I'm moving, that the matches I'm playing matter--to be very rewarding.

I would love them to reintroduce the "you moved up a league!" or "you moved down a league" popups. When I started out, it was a big incentive for me to keep playing. "Yey i made it to league 5! Now let's try league 4 :D"

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 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Xelrog wrote:
I find that--just knowing that I'm moving, that the matches I'm playing matter--to be very rewarding.

Would you still feel the same way if your progress through the leaderboard were primarily down it?

Constant flux is good if we're all good players who will gain from every match. That's not the reality, though. I'd not support a leaderboard system that's solely a win/loss tally, but some additional metagame analysis would be more enticing.

Think Dota+, but without all the money involved.

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