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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Nekomian wrote:
Slevens wrote:
Not probably, it is the cleanest and easiest way for Ronimo to keep nauts alive. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: Give us ASM, we'll make patches for you to release but do not change any of what the community decides upon with said patches.


I still have to disagree with this, even if it's good in theory or a minority opinion; leaving major balance changes to the discretion of a few select group of people has *never* worked well in my experiences. Some of the changes are good yes, but ultimately it leads into too much toxic behavior as well as individuals trying to get their own mains buffed, or even small subsets of the group essentially dictating the entire conversation flow. Lack of that subjectivity and inclusivity in certain situations is what makes me have doubts in this method, and the previous 3 or 4 (or even more) attempts at this method makes me question the outcome of a future one even more so.

To clarify: I don't hate the idea by any means, but I personally feel it won't be successful given my experience with the community in this matter.



Then, as it has been said multiple times before. Have players who are reputable enough to not be biased against/for certain characters as much as possible to help a healthy game be created. Not trying to stir the pot, but Ronimo has had a shady past when it comes to changes with some really wack ideas, not to mention how they already do rely on the community for changes because honestly none of them play their game at a high enough level to see what the actual issues players face. They're honestly all L5-L3 from what I recall which barely even scratches the top layer of any problem present in the game.

It's not the cleanest way to fix the game, and it certainly will skew the community because 'muh casual game' but if Ronimo won't listen to us and fix the most obvious of bugs then it's up to the community if we want the game to continue. This will always be a running issue and people are against the community having a hand in the game, but if it weren't for the community we'd have RBAY explode Clunk, moving laser Yuri and Lux with Lone's bull on steroids.

I don't play the game much anymore, primary because the new smash game came out recently, but it's honestly so stupid as to how Ronimo is so blind to the issues faced in the game. It's also pretty embarrassing for them to not even come out of the wood work to talk to us at all, let alone not even a several month eta on anything for any games. I hope this new IP that they're putting everything into works, but any company's main revenue source will be from previous backers from their past games. So sectioning off their biggest playerbase because they don't want to talk to us, nor do they want to tell us anything about anything they are working on. I understand that they want want to polish/work hard on this new IP to get it out there, but some transparency in any shape of form would be much appreciated and the community would benefit it as well as quell some of the doubts that we all have.

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Japiepatatzakie wrote:
[snip]

I see. There are certainly inconsistencies that do make the game less readable than it should be. This is, incidentally, why I constantly harp on about consistency.

That said, Awesomenauts really doesn't need that much wider reading for deeper understanding when compared to the other games it's competing with. Rocket League aside—because that's an irrelevant comparison—Dota, League, and HotS are all far more complex in nature, yet newer players manage just fine. This is especially true for Dota. I also dispute that Overwatch has complex mechanics, although I agree that its visual and aural design is stellar. Awesomenauts could certainly learn from the techniques of very successful games, but that would require Ronimo's continuing communication, which evidently isn't happening this year.

In my opinion, there is only so much that can be spoonfed to players before they need to take the initiative and research the game themselves. Every vaguely awake Dota player knows there's physical, magical, and pure damage, yet very few of them know of the different types of physical damage—it's not indicated anywhere in game. The Awesomenauts wiki is well-maintained in that regard, but I don't feel it goes into enough detail. Neither does the (new) tutorial.

Slevens wrote:
It's not the cleanest way to fix the game, and it certainly will skew the community because 'muh casual game' but if Ronimo won't listen to us and fix the most obvious of bugs then it's up to the community if we want the game to continue. This will always be a running issue and people are against the community having a hand in the game, but if it weren't for the community we'd have RBAY explode Clunk, moving laser Yuri and Lux with Lone's bull on steroids.

I agree with your points, but it is possible for professional (or whatever Awesomenauts' equivalent is) players to produce balance changes catered towards more casual play. At any rate, I'm more a fan of balancing around the majority—usually casuals—and leaving the professional scene to sort its own strategies out. They're the ones that should be able to adapt.

That said, I don't think Awesomenauts' playerbase is actually large enough for there to be any meaningful distinction between professional and casual anymore.

On top of that:
Slevens wrote:
...if it weren't for the community we'd have RBAY explode Clunk, moving laser Yuri and Lux with Lone's bull on steroids.

Am I the only person that thinks Awesomenauts could actually be quite fun if we threw balance out the window and made everyone overpowered, à la Dota? Speed the game up something crazy and turn it into less of a commitment towards victory and more of a "I want to kill things for the next twelve minutes and, by the gods, I will enjoy myself" game.

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:04 pm 
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i bet up to this point, Ronimo hasn't learned a thing, they don't know why Awesomenauts was a good product, nor how they managed to mess it up and they don't know either how to fix it.

They still don't know why people didn't back them up with the S&S2 expansion or how F2P far from helping the game put the final nail in the coffin (gotta thank all the people who pushed this agenda up their ass, the same people who said that as long as there are 100 players at the same time, only 6 are needed for a match) because clearly people who can't afford $1 games aren't going to buy $12 skins regardless your business model

They never understood the principle behind Awesomepoints, and how to continue making appealing. They still don't get how PR works and how players around the globe are just as knowledgeable as them in matters of economics, the industry, game development and company management and how at this point in time, everyone with a little foresight can see how they aren't making things right, distributing resources properly and taking advantage of what they already own

then again, it might be a cultural thing, as bad as other companies and dev teams are, i've never seen people as clueless and uninterested in their livelihood as Ronimo games are and i can't but think it's because that's how they raise people overseas

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Slevens wrote:
Not probably, it is the cleanest and easiest way for Ronimo to keep nauts alive. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: Give us ASM, we'll make patches for you to release but do not change any of what the community decides upon with said patches.

how giving you a tool to make whatever character you like god, will save the game? is this the same principle of making the game f2p? or making Awesomenauts 2? how can you even warrant quality control over it? are you going to make a comite? why not just enabling a beta branch open to balance changes? what entitles a playerbase to take control over a game, when the playerbase itself is dwindling, jumping boat and barely interested in the game? would you hand out the keys of your house to a hobo that compliments on it every day and thinks he knows more about your house than yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:41 am 
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Did... did you just first spend an entire 3 paragraphs talking about how clueless Ronimo is to then say that they know a lot more than the community :derp:

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:57 pm 
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That's the secret—argue both for and against your point, and you'll confuse everyone into stunned silence.

That way, no one can rebuke you.

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:11 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
That's the secret—argue both for and against your point, and you'll confuse everyone into stunned silence.

That way, no one can rebuke you.

They're not wrong. Yes, Ronimo has squandered a lot, but that doesn't mean I think the community should take over. Not only is it totally unclear how that would even work, but this is first and foremost RONIMO's product. I want THEM to give it real attention and make smart choices, not throw my hands up and say that the community can do it better. Because we can't. All that community control would be is a few people nerfing characters they don't like. Or even if they made good choices, character balancing isn't the reason this game can't keep players.

I'm mostly just salty about Swords and Soldiers 2. There were like 3 hours this morning where there were 0 people playing. 0. The fact that Ronimo thought this was a worthwhile project after not being able to secure Kickstarter funding baffles me. Ultimately it's their choice to design whatever they want, but when you forestall Awesomenauts development to work on this and then it sinks into nothingness 3 weeks after release, I can't help but feel angry.

0-5 players. An all-time peak of 86 players. Ronimo spent all this time developing multiplayer matchmaking for a game that pulls at most 10 people on a weekend afternoon. Wonderful. Then Awesomenauts falls to a few hundred players and they somehow say that it has a stable, healthy community and they don't know when they'll return to work on it.

Notice: Not even when new content will come out. When they will come back to to start developing things, which will be a months long process in itself. This company bombed this game hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:56 pm 
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So, the community shouldn't be given the chance to try and inject some life back into this game because... you don't think it'll be able to, but instead of actually testing that theory, we're going to throw our hands up and wait for Ronimo to push onward with the game they're ostensibly no longer developing?

I'd reason that the community could, at minimum, successfully handle balance changes. After all, we've been doing just that for years. It stands to reason, based on the relative success of custom maps, that the community's more talented than it might seem.

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:54 pm 
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I mean even if we all agreed something like this should happen while Ronimo does something else. I sincerely doubt they'd do it with how reluctant they were to promise any changes or devoting any resources to Nauts.

This isn't about agreeing to an idea this is about Ronimo just not being willing to develop Nauts until they complete whatever they're working on right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Ronimo Update - Dec. 7th, 2018
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:30 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
I'd reason that the community could, at minimum, successfully handle balance changes. After all, we've been doing just that for years. It stands to reason, based on the relative success of custom maps, that the community's more talented than it might seem.


The community's balance is okay, albeit a little less involved and moreover one-sided at times; we honestly need a lot more checks and balances with more community involvement in that regard, to prevent any single person or group from dominating the discussions or changes. However, every time it's been attempted, support quickly dies out for this and balance discussions fall apart and become dead; it's just not consistent enough, people lose interest. It would be a good idea sure, but I personally just don't see it as a realistic thing.

Morrowsaw wrote:
I mean even if we all agreed something like this should happen while Ronimo does something else. I sincerely doubt they'd do it with how reluctant they were to promise any changes or devoting any resources to Nauts.

This isn't about agreeing to an idea this is about Ronimo just not being willing to develop Nauts until they complete whatever they're working on right now.


Also, yes. This type of thing also takes support from ronma, and their current situation doesn't spare any manpower to enable these types of ideas, no matter how well thought out or executed on the community side. It's just a patience and waiting game at this point, unfortunately.

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