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 Post subject: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Vinnie is as boring as it gets to play now, the only reason he was ever fun to play in the past was because of double dive. I've never really bought the "it's unbalanceable" argument, and for the sake of making Vinnie fun again, I think it's worth one last shot at making it work. The problem was there was this upgrade that gave a CDR reduction to spike dive on smokescreen, which worked as a damage doubler for spike dive and was pretty much central for Vinnie builds. It was removed for two reasons;
A) The upgrade was mandatory, 2X damage is impossible to pass up.
B) Spike dive would have to be made too weak outside of double dive for it to be balanced, Vinnie had to pretty much be balanced around it.

And that's where my idea comes in; Balance Vinnie around double dive by making old WPM innate to base smokescreen!. I don't want to make this too long, but it shouldn't be that hard to see how A is completly redundant and B isn't much of an issue in my mind, but it can be mostly avoided with some clever numbers and by adding some utility to dive and by turning a single dive into a poke rather than a burst. It doesn't need to be a complete reset so it's chasing potential isn't ridiculous and CDR on dive should go to prevent people trying to work around this, but a nice CDR on screen could actually make Vinnie scale the best he ever has. And lastly, having a 2sec-ish gap inbetween dives would make it really satisfying to land and very "fair", unlike what spike dive has been like up until now.

What do people think of this and bringing double dive back in general? Do you prefer double dive Vinnie or single dash Vinnie?

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:19 pm 
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I'll just post some numbers to give people some idea of whats going through my mind, they could use some work, but they get my rough idea across well enough;

-Reduce spike dive's base range by a sizable amount
-WPM needs to be removed to compensate for double dive's return.
-Smokescreen reduces spike dive CD by 4sec on use

-Base dive: 35>30 damage, cooldown 7>6
-CF: 3 stages of +6 damage. 190 per stage
-BoGF: +15>12 damage. Cost 150>200
-DSH: Now flat damage instead of %. 12 damage per stage, 2 stages. 210 solar per stage.
-AAK: Silence dive returns, 2 stages of 0.5sec, 150 per stage.
-RCG: Now a lifesteal upgrade, not to sure on numbers. 4 per hit, 2 stages maybe?
-AMG: Doesn't affect DSH. Price 160>230. May need removing if it becomes a problem.

-------------------------

Basically make spike dive a very spammable ability on it's own, doing less damage to compensate so it acts as a dynamite type poke rather than burst. Full reset doesn't return, he will still have a delay of 2sec. Hopefully this should stop it decimating pubs. The range reduction should lessen the impact in a teamfight and make it a far, far more dangerous manouver against a coordinated team, especially with the 2sec interval; hopefully this should keep him balanced in competative.

DSH will hopefully be very hard to hit with the reduced size and will unlikely hit during double dives, hopefully it becomes more of a "dive into nothing>smokescreen>DSH finisher dive" upgrade and for high risk hammer pants manouvers. This also allows the current invis setup to live on, since I reckon DSH will be hard to hit consistently in double dive specs. If it's still an issue, a massive range reduction could be given to DSH's spikes, to force it to be a hammer pants skillshot.

Removing CDR because getting good cooldown numbers was really hard with it. I just decided to keep everybody happy and make all the utility options avaliable to begin with.

Due to how dangerous dive and double dive would be with the reduced range and sizable gap and how hard DSH will be to hit, stacking damage becomes more of a joke loadout (outside of invis, which loses double dive to do so) and taking a safty option such as lifesteal, range or silence will become more popular. Even though he can get a 120 burst with a safety upgrade, it will be harder to hit still, and there is a good 2sec to run away/kill him for it.

New WPM+double dive would cause havoc, it's currently not the most fun upgrade either so I don't think many would mourn it's loss. Smokescreen could really use some attention, but the main point of this post is about rebalancing dive, so I'll just point out it will have to be removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:45 pm 
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I love you so much.


I can't describe how much approval this gets from me.

Not a very contributive post, but still, I love you.

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:09 am 
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TOM FOR BETANAUTS 2013!

Seriously love this idea!

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:13 am 
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Yes bring back the double dive! It required more skill than this come out of no where instant burst damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:30 am 
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I'm smiling like a giddy idiot at the thought of having Mario Kart: Double Dash!! back.

Not so sure on the upgrade changes, but I want to try this. Really, really badly. Double Dive was the funnest thing in the whole game in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:55 am 
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Anything to get rid of the current 3 damage upgrade stacking or range + 2 damage stacking.

Although, turning an upgraded smokescreen into Dive #2 sounds boring. Imagine if Froggy could use another Dash in place of a Tornado. It's about as balanced and fun to play against as that, and the whole reason it was removed. Base Smokescreen needs buffs, and dive upgrades need changing / nerfs. Those buffs/changes should not be oriented toward turning one skill into the other, because that makes for a simple-to-play character with a deliberate spam-to-win mechanic.

Honestly I'm not sure why smokescreen has not been given a slow upgrade yet, or even a base slow of some small amount.

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:58 am 
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So its unanimous? (Across four posts ;)) we want double dive back!

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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:20 am 
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What is double dive? I do not remember the old times. :derp:


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 Post subject: Re: Bring back Vinnie's double dive! (new idea+disscussion)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:23 am 
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Oil_Rope_Bombs wrote:
What is double dive? I do not remember the old times. :derp:


If you used cooldown on Spike Dive as well as an old ability on Smoke Screen that reduced the cooldown of Spike Dive when Screen was used, you could dash two times in a very short amount of time if you dived>used Screed to reduce cooldown>dived again.

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