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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Clunks movement is underwhelming but he has explode which is already a risk in itself. However I do think teleburst does way to much damage. Ignoring teleburst Sentry is fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:37 pm 
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S_Fits wrote:
However I do think teleburst does way to much damage. Ignoring teleburst Sentry is fine.


+1. Not only being too much damaging, the size of the teleburst is absurdly huge, such a damaging ability shouldn't have one of the biggest AOE in the entire game.

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
S_Fits wrote:
However I do think teleburst does way to much damage. Ignoring teleburst Sentry is fine.


+1. Not only being too much damaging, the size of the teleburst is absurdly huge, such a damaging ability shouldn't have one of the biggest AOE in the entire game.


you know how hard it is to teleburst with all the DOT and decent range weapons in the game, 1 tiny autoattack can stop the whole thing

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Dewott610 wrote:
Doppelganger wrote:
S_Fits wrote:
However I do think teleburst does way to much damage. Ignoring teleburst Sentry is fine.


+1. Not only being too much damaging, the size of the teleburst is absurdly huge, such a damaging ability shouldn't have one of the biggest AOE in the entire game.


you know how hard it is to teleburst with all the DOT and decent range weapons in the game, 1 tiny autoattack can stop the whole thing

IMO it doesn't help Sentry's overloaded kit. Whenever I hear people from my friends complain about a character it's always Sentry.

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:08 pm 
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When people complain about Sentry, I imagine it usually isn't teleburst they're complaining about.


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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:19 pm 
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fictionarious wrote:
When people complain about Sentry, I imagine it usually isn't teleburst they're complaining about.

indeed. Teleburst is just insult added to injury.

The way I see it he has:
- Two sources of amazing damage
- Big area denial and/or AoE cc
- An upgrade that makes him sanic
- The ability to teleport
- Area denial mines that can home in & lifesteal.
- A 2 second AoE silence
- A 40% shield

Like sure, his kit isn't super reliable but it's usually good enough to stomp a lot of games with, as a result he's the character that comes to mind when I think antifun.

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:36 pm 
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Gameinsky wrote:
fictionarious wrote:
When people complain about Sentry, I imagine it usually isn't teleburst they're complaining about.

indeed. Teleburst is just insult added to injury.

The way I see it he has:
- Two sources of amazing damage
- Big area denial and/or AoE cc
- An upgrade that makes him sanic
- The ability to teleport
- Area denial mines that can home in & lifesteal.
- A 2 second AoE silence
- A 40% shield

Like sure, his kit isn't super reliable but it's usually good enough to stomp a lot of games with, as a result he's the character that comes to mind when I think antifun.


they nerfed the night vision spywatch already, also if you keep your distance and wait til bhs is down.
But this topic is getting off from the original topic, we're here to discuss lux.

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:46 am 
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Alright, I have given extra playtime to Jimmy myself to help verify things and do some comparisons to just fighting him (rare, but when he is played well it is scary).

I do not like the way you have put some of your arguments, Pillow. I do agree that Jimmy overall could use some toning down, especially in regards to his damage, but it could be put so much more eloquently. If I were to take the same stance, I would say that Jimmy provides overwhelming pressure and given his mobility, he has access to more damage and sustain than necessary. I would also advise against too many changes at one time, because it can swing character balance drastically and dangerously.

For individual points, I will tackle them as well:

Decreasing Jimmy's maximum HP from 1550 to 1500 is perfectly fine, as the buff previously was in compensation at a time where people had not mastered Jimmy and realized his potential. 1500 is also slightly more in-line with his upgrades that allow him to sustain so much damage.

Changing Diaper to a cooldown per 3rd AA hit (assuming once per 3rd AA and not for each tick of the Rattle Wave) seems like an unnecessary change. As it stands, it is actually decent for Jimmy in some builds, such as ability spam for AA Shields, and constant dashing for Danger Pins damage/pins. Also, it stacks well with Overdrive Gear for 6.4 second cooldowns (not factoring in the duration portion which further augments the downtime).

Danger Pins on the other hand, I am concerned about changing for your described reasons. Allowing Jimmy to have one of his core Charge upgrades out the gate is like giving Skolldir Stun Punch for 180 solar. It is fairly sizable damage for what it is and at an extremely good price for the applicability. 210 solar for 210 damage which is a great 1:1 ratio. On top of that, Charge can be manually ended so you can get off Danger Pins in almost all cases, unlike Tweeters (Frog) or Kraken Shot (Max) which are harder to land on longer cooldowns. If you were looking to reduce the price, I would honestly recommend reducing the damage slightly as well from 210 to 200 in order to counteract the new power that Jimmy will have out-of-the-gate without Piggy Banking.

In regards to shield and health conversion, I agree that the healing becomes outrageous. Your solution, while it fixes them, makes Pacifier worth a lot less. While a radical change to Pacifier, I would imagine changing it to a flat heal, like Deadlift's Swatter, would stop the healing from getting crazy and synergize more with Danger Pins. With a smaller flat heal, the shield would be less scary with its current values as well.

For Fresh Sandpit Sand, I think the extra flexibility would be warranted, especially considering a lot of hover-jumping is done with Jimmy's AA to maximize the area. :thumb:

No issues with the price changes to missile upgrades that you have suggested. One thing to note, however, is that Micey and the Missile Factory is a little lackluster because it is a 15% damage increase if you land all three missiles, in comparison to Adventures in Rocketland which provides an easy +20% damage. In many cases, it does not feel like the upgrade adds much besides more area coverage at the cost of some damage, and potentially increased damage if you're close enough.

I would save the Pop Out Cage change for later as a second priority change to the other significant changes. At the moment, it adds some area of effect which is nice for stacking Lifesteal in some situations, but lacks other presence. I would not miss it, but I would be cautious about making drastic changes after the other suggested changes.

AA Math:
In regards to Jimmy's AA DPS, I can calculate that for show. Multiple components make it more difficult. Allow me to lay down some math:

Attack speed is 90, which in Roninumbers is 90 attacks per minute. Divide by 60 to get:
- 1.5 attacks per second. This is the multiplier and ratio used to divide later on.

Jimmy has 3 AA damage sources:
- A standard hit for two punches that deals 105 each.
- A larger hit for the third damage impact of 150.
- Three Rattle Waves of 30 damage each, total of 90 additional damage for the third attack.

Go back to the attack speed. How much time would you need to calculate all three hits together? 1.5 attacks per second means that the easiest and closest number to divide with would be 2 seconds, as 2 seconds will give an easy and clean 3 attacks (the total).

Do some addition (Hits, Larger Hit, and Waves):
105 + 105 + 150 + 90 = 450 (damage over 2 seconds)

Apply division (Total damage divided by the time, in seconds, it takes to achieve all the hits):
450 / 2 = 225 DPS

So Jimmy's base DPS is 225 including all hits applied and hitting. That is fairly significant, especially considering it does hit multiple targets.
/Math

Leon's base DPS by comparison is 216 (rounded up from 215.97). Scoop's base DPS is 160 (with a base lifesteal of 12*targets). Gnaw's DPS is 175.52 (that is including that base DoT DPS). Penny's DPS is 176.

I can agree to some base damage nerfs for Jimmy. Whether the first two hits or the third should be impacted more, is up to what the AA should feel like.

More AA Math:
With the proposed changes, his damage values would be 85, 85, 125, and 90.
Total value: 385 damage over 2 seconds.
Base DPS as a result: 192.5 DPS (base).
/More AA Math

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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:07 am 
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Dewott610 wrote:
S_Fits wrote:
Tanks are not supposed to do the most amazing damage.

You mean like clunk? or sentry? They're both tanks with amazing damage so why shouldn't lux have it?


Yes, but if they fail to overwhelm with their damage, they cannot just quickly run away with impunity the way Lux can.


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 Post subject: Re: Lux changes thread
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:21 pm 
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I don't think there should be any arguments about Lux should be able to escape and chase, as well as brawl, attack, and defend. It's more about how effective he should be at each function, typically tanks are slow with high health and a lot of damage, Lux is both fast and has a lot of damage, however less than average health for a tank. Characters like Derpl, Clunk, and Scoop have relatively low droid clear / defense, but Sentry and Lux both have good droid clear and defense, similar to Derpl, Jimmy also has strong push, if he gets in front of a turret, it's taking massive damage. And like Scoop, Jimmy can brawl really well, while also being able to escape (and chase if you consider hammer to be effective at chasing ignoring Yellow Snow cone), this is all fine however it boils down to in what way should Lux be changed, to where he's not as overwhelming in situations, yet still unique.

I agree with Devmon about Dangerpins, Fresh Sandpit Sand, and reducing his AA DPS to make him a bit easier to brawl. Those are all the changes Lux honestly needs in one patch. Danger Pins is an amazing item, and I think allowing Jimmy to get it off the bat without piggying, while reducing it's damage to keep the 1;1 solar/dmg trade off is very fair, Fresh Sandpit would get a large buff, giving some Jimmy's more interesting ways to play (while also increasing DPS significantly against droids, but players not so much), and decreasing his AA DPS removes the strongest thing about Jimmy and is a fantastic nerf without ruining Jimmy to much, but making him more fair for some AA-Focused characters to be able to brawl him.

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